| Are Cheaters really cheating? |
| Yes, they're cheating people |
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88% |
[ 8 ] |
| Yes, creating an unfair environment |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Maybe, they're cheating, but they've worked to learn another advantage |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| No, they're merely more skilled at what they do in the game |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| No, the other man's a fault for not learnig these skills as well |
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11% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 9 |
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DanesInsaneIX
2 Pairs
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle, WA |
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 Are cheaters really cheating? |
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> Are cheaters really cheating? Everyone is giving the opportunity to take the time to learn a manipulation or take an advantage over someone by an error they've caused. So why is it considered cheating when someone manipulates the cards to highten their winning capacity. The opponet is fairly beaten by a more advanced player. The opponent is just ignorant toward learning these moves by lack of motivation to learn such skill. Therefore, if sighting a reavealed card while someone is shuffling or dealing isn't cheating, merely an advantage by human error, than manipulation or co-op of players are just merely another stage of advantages the next guy is capable of learning if only he took the time to do so. With that said, shouldn't "cheating" be just another part of the game. The game is based on trying to decieve your opponent by bluffing and human manipulation. So card or chip manipulation is just as well another "psycological" advantage by trying to manipulate your opponent(s)' (s) ability to win. So again, are cheaters cheating, or is the cheated merely losing by lack of ignorance.
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"Play the man, not just the hand" |
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:42 pm |
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Big Jay
2 Pairs
Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
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Its against the rules of the game to cheat to give youself an unfair advantage to other players, therefore marking cards is illegal = cheating.
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:34 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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| losers |
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If
Last edited by Chipmaster on Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:13 pm |
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>How is it an unfair advantage if the other person is just as capable to learn it themselves but choose not to? I'm not implicating to go do these things in a casino (if caught, you're screwed), I'm implying doing it at personal, home games. If there's more than a few cheats at a table, it gives poker a more skillful outlook. I use basic strategy for my advantage, but will throw in a false shuffle or a glimpse as my oppenent(s) tries diciphering whats being done in the game. I like winning fairly, don't think I'm your stereotype cheater, I just like the extra challenge added to the poker game. I usually let myself lose substantual amounts of my chips just so people get cocky and I learn their tells even more easily, then for a little fun, I come back from the bottom of the barrel. Try it. The next time you and a few friends get together, make a few games where you play different styles of poker, but people try to "cheat" one another, that's the purpose of the game. IT'S A GAME. Now, if playing in tournaments, cheating will get you killed (if caught that is).
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:02 pm |
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| jackass. |
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>I'm not implicating to go do these things in a casino (if caught, you're screwed), I'm implying doing it at personal, home games.. |
heh....come do it at a personal game at my house....'WHEN' I catch you, you will be plenty fu*king screwed.
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:40 pm |
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Eric
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 2487
Location: California |
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-Observing that a certain player always stacks his chips a certain way when he has good cards is not cheating.
-Talking to an opponent to pick up a tell is not cheating.
-Manipulating the cards in the deck is clearly cheating. I enjoy learning about different techniques like bottom dealing so that I can get better at recognizing if someone is trying to do it against me.
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:29 pm |
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DanesInsaneIX
2 Pairs
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle, WA |
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>But still, no one is answering my question. Isn't everyone capable of taking the time to learn these tricks of the trade? And If everyone knows it, then it's no longer an advantage if the guy next to you knows of it as well. Right? In that sense, it's not cheating. And AGAIN, I'm NOT implying to do this with strangers, I'm implying to do this as another branch of the tree of the game of poker. A mere sub-poker GAME. Not REAL. FOR FUN!!! With friends for good kicks, NOT to STEAL from STRANGERS. That's what I'm trying to get at.
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"Play the man, not just the hand" |
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:30 pm |
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TuTone
Straight Flush
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: San Diego, CA |
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i don't know about anyone else but if i was in a home game with you and i knew you were cheating i'd either kick you out or leave....i'd be dumb to just let you take advangtage of me in that way
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'If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you are the sucker.'
- Matt Damon as 'Mike McDermott' in Rounders |
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:47 pm |
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DanesInsaneIX
2 Pairs
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Seattle, WA |
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So you guys are telling me, you wouldn't play a game of poker when manipulation is allowed in a very low stakes game, or just for the color of chips... Wouldn't it be fun and intresting to use these card and chip manipulations you've worked so hard to master in a game for fun???
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"Play the man, not just the hand" |
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| Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:57 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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| cheating |
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[quote="DanesInsaneIX"]
Last edited by Chipmaster on Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:20 am |
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gtsp33d
2 Pairs
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 11
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one way of non-cheating cheating is card counting for blackjack. i'm trying to learn it after i saw the MIT students do it.
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| Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:43 am |
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Jim
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Sorry if this sounds rude but that has to be one of the dumbest questions I've ever heard. It sounds like a second grader is trying to defend an act that he knows is wrong by saying that everyone can do it if only they really wanted to. So, is murder really murder since everyone could learn how to kill someone? Of course it is! And of course it's still wrong! I'm not against advantage play, it's your choice and I'm not going to preach to you about how 'wrong' it is, however I must say that your question has passed the line of idiotic and is bordering or moronic. (once again sorry for being so insensible, just very frustrated)
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| Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:13 pm |
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rlk7
Card Tricks Contests I,II Champ
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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one way of non-cheating cheating is card counting for blackjack. i'm trying to learn it after i saw the MIT students do it. |
Card Counting is NOT cheating. It is just using your brain and probability to know when you have a better chance to win.
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| Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:19 pm |
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BLaZE
Chip Tricks Contest II Champ
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 554
Location: WI, USA |
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Like ryan said, card counting isn't cheating. It erks me when I see specials of how the casinos kick card counters out. Card counting is merely you being smarter then the average player and smart enough to know when you can win money off the casino, the casino doesn't like this and its private property, so they escort you out, it isnt because of cheating , its because they are losing money.
As for all this talk about a home game, where everyone is allowed to cheat, just sounds stupid. So everyone deals themselves aces, or whoever deals always wins, or whoever brought the cards always knows everyone elses cards.... sounds kind of pointless, not to mention what happens if someone gets caught cheating.. they "lose there deal" lol. what a joke.
Cheating is cheating. Games were made with barriers, and if you play within these barriers and succeed you are better then your opponent, if you go out of these barriers you are playing a different game that is easier, and may benefit you. "But BLaZE, cheating is not easy, I had to spend several weeks to get my bottom deal to work." My answer to this is you were not practicing breaking the rules, you were practicing hiding from your opponents that you were breaking the rules. Cheating is simply downgrading the game to how you see fit and is not fair. Ever.
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Last edited by BLaZE on Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:16 am |
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Shadow
Forum Administrator
Joined: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 1652
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BTW in most casinos here aren't allowed the blackjack tables. I've heard that they are sold in casinos in the USA.
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| Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:26 am |
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CardSorcerer
Flush
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Los Angeles |
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If your girlfriend is in a different state, is it cheating? Yes, it is. You can try to justify it any way you want, but your still a cheater. I personally dislike cheating and would get very angry if I caught someone doing it.
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| Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:31 am |
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hondo928
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 109
Location: somwhere around DC |
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card counting is definatley not cheating but it wouldnt be fair to cheat everyone and everyone cheat you because you would just keep getting ure money back. Its not fair to manipulate cards or used marked decks unless you know for sure someone has been cheating then i guess it owuld be ok if you let everyone else in the game know about it so they can get in on the action too
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| Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:59 pm |
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Guest
Guest
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I dont see the argument at stake. If you are someone cheatin at cards for the money, go play the friggin lotto or somethin, but if you are a actual cardplayer, where is the challenge? you may not have a conscience but I personally would wonder if I could of beaten those players straight up and outplay them. One hand could change the entire pace of a game. And yes, I would commend a person for their ability to manipulate cards. but why rip off your friends. I like the purity of poker and the abilty to deceive, but in the form it was meant to be played. If you wanna show your skills to your buddies deal a hand but make sure all bets are in front of each player that way at the end, you can show your quad aces,everyone gets their bets back, and you guys have a good laugh. But for the sake of true poker, even if your opponent is an asshole, the feeling must be greater to straight up outplay the asshole, then stoop to crooked deals. If all your friends are good at sleight of hand, put on a magic show for little kids, but when it comes to poker, keep it true. you never know, you win some games, higher stakes, you sit down with the wrong guys and you misread the type of people at the table (because you forgot how to read people by always dealing yourself a winning hand), and they catch you, then it gets violent. All Im sayin is, its kinda a guilt trip for me personally always questioning if I could have beaten that guy fair and square.
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| Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:47 pm |
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Jim
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Very true. Good points. However, the problem is that with most people its just all about the money. The question of whether or not your truely better than someone becomes second place to the issue of cold, hard cash.
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| Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:31 am |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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Sorry if this sounds rude but that has to be one of the dumbest questions I've ever heard. It sounds like a second grader is trying to defend an act that he knows is wrong by saying that everyone can do it if only they really wanted to. So, is murder really murder since everyone could learn how to kill someone? Of course it is! And of course it's still wrong! I'm not against advantage play, it's your choice and I'm not going to preach to you about how 'wrong' it is, however I must say that your question has passed the line of idiotic and is bordering or moronic. (once again sorry for being so insensible, just very frustrated) |
LOL! holy shit, that was perfect.....
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| Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:10 pm |
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tokkaloshman
Flush
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Scotland |
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I look at playing cards and cheating at cards as two seperate games. I enjoy playing poker so cheating can detract from the enjoyment of the game. However it can be fun to try out some new slight you've learned for a laugh, like dealing yourseld a royal flush three times in a row.
Basically if you cheat all the times in cards your missing out in the fun of the game, and unless your playing some complete jackass, cheating your friends out of their money is like learning to pick pocket and then stealing their wallet.
_________________
Life is like a game of cards
You just have to play
the hand your dealt.......
f*ck it, wheres the aces? |
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| Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:55 am |
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LOL! holy shit, that was perfect..... |
thank you 
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| Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:57 am |
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dutchfan
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1061
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Anything giving you more of an advantage over the other player, BESIDES chip count =P, is cheating. These manipulations, messing with deck, all this crap is cheating.
p.s. the players are not ignorant for not learning cheats. They want to win fair in square. The CHEATERS are ignorant for not learning to WIN PROPERLY.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:40 pm |
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Jim
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Anything giving you more of an advantage over the other player, BESIDES chip count =P, is cheating. |
Would you consider more experience or general knowledge of the game cheating then? That cleary gives you an advantage, but doesn't constitute unfair gameplay in my (and I assume everyone else's) mind. I might just be getting nitpicky (sp?), but I do agree with your overall message about other players not having to take responsibility for not learning how to cheat.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:02 pm |
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dutchfan
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1061
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Anything giving you more of an advantage over the other player, BESIDES chip count =P, is cheating. |
Would you consider more experience or general knowledge of the game cheating then? That cleary gives you an advantage, but doesn't constitute unfair gameplay in my (and I assume everyone else's) mind. I might just be getting nitpicky (sp?), but I do agree with your overall message about other players not having to take responsibility for not learning how to cheat. |
Ya, now your just picking at what i said, lol ,I agree I agree, i could probably list a lot of things that are advantages but don't constitute unfair play. But that basic point was that cheaters are being ignorant for not wanting to learn how to win in a fair game.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:10 pm |
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Jim
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Yeah, I kind of figured that that's not what you meant, but I had to ask.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:14 pm |
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pokerfanatic
Royal Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1273
Location: Dayton, Ohio |
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| Re: jackass. |
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>I'm not implicating to go do these things in a casino (if caught, you're screwed), I'm implying doing it at personal, home games.. |
heh....come do it at a personal game at my house....'WHEN' I catch you, you will be plenty fu*king screwed. |
This is true, I fell the same way. Card counting though looked down upon by casinos is legal because you are only using your brain and no "interments" to keep track of the cards that have been played. I only like to see and learn these things so I know what type of things a cheater might use as "techniques" to win. I would never try and cheat what's the point, if you try and cheat me out of money and you get caught, watch out. Another side note, if you’re a good card played what's the point of cheating? If you’re good, you can just out play the opponents and have no risk of getting your ass whooped and money taken... Ever heard the phrase "Cheaters never prosper"? I don’t think having more knowledge of a game then the other person is cheating. Same goes with card counting, poker tells, shit talking, anything BUT manipulating the cards. As soon as you manipulate the cards it IS cheating.
_________________
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
Last edited by pokerfanatic on Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:07 pm |
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Its funny hearing people say, "oh i'd kick ur ass if i ever caught u!" How do u know you could even come close to kicking his ass (or anyone who may cheat you's ass)? i would love to see some guy come to ur game, have u catch him cheating, see u try to act like a tough guy and stand up to him and take his money, and then when u tried to fight him have ur ass just get pounded. hahahhahaahhaah But then again u must be some tough guy, threatening to beat people up just because youre online and can hide behind your computer screen.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:48 pm |
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rlk7
Card Tricks Contests I,II Champ
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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Like you should talk, your a guest...in hiding....lol.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:54 pm |
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what difference does that make? being under the name guest isnt any less revealing that being under ur screenname? im not saying im some big tough guy, just laughing at those who r acting like they r
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:10 pm |
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pokerfanatic
Royal Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1273
Location: Dayton, Ohio |
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Go cheat and find out what happens I’m only telling people what would happen. You make yourself look more like a fool by misreading my post... I said what everyone in this post did, only what WOULD happen IN MOST CASES, and if your cheating one person you're cheating the whole table it would be more then just say one on one...
_________________
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
Last edited by pokerfanatic on Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:43 pm |
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Go cheat and find out what happens I’m only telling people what would happen. |
Alright sounds good! And when i do i ll be sure to look for a huge fag who trys to act tough (that way I ll know that i took ur money by cheating.)
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:48 pm |
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pokerfanatic
Royal Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1273
Location: Dayton, Ohio |
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I’m not going to get into something as dumb as this with you, if your looking for a "fag", have fun looking you'll never find me, and read my edit on the post above while you're at it...
_________________
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
Last edited by pokerfanatic on Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:51 pm |
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if you try and cheat me out of money and you get caught, watch out because not only you going to catch an ass whopping, you're going to get all your cash taken too |
Your a prick because you just misinterrpreted what u urself said! all i said was dont try to tell people ud 'beat them up' since chances r ud get ur 15 year old ass crushed!
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:54 pm |
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pokerfanatic
Royal Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1273
Location: Dayton, Ohio |
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READ ALL THE EDITS, i don't see that quote anywere do you, and you're the 15 year old acting this way about this shit anyways. You're acting like the hard ass now, ignorant fool.
_________________
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ |
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:58 pm |
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ok, nice, u edited that quote after i posted it, hahahahaha nice
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:01 pm |
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pokerfanatic
Royal Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 1273
Location: Dayton, Ohio |
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Take your ass somewhere else. I’m tired of lessoning to you run your mouth as a guest to the site... I personally don't like it and I’m sure the other regular people around here don't like reading it, as of that we are done talking, have a nice day.
_________________
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ |
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:03 pm |
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oh, and how am i being a tough guy? all i did was say its humerous to see u acting like one......... but i guess that makes me some hardass alright!
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:03 pm |
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alright, sounds good, tough guy 
cya later Mr toughie
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:07 pm |
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Guest
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oh, sorry this is my last post but i just gotta say it. the best part of the whole thing is how you went back and edited all your posts to cover ur dumbass tracks hahahahahahahahaahahahah
me:
you: 
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:10 pm |
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lol
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:24 pm |
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rlk7
Card Tricks Contests I,II Champ
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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oh, sorry this is my last post but i just gotta say it. the best part of the whole thing is how you went back and edited all your posts to cover ur dumbass tracks hahahahahahahahaahahahah
me:
you: |
me: 
Your hilarious....right...not. The conversation was fine until you said you were gonna go look for some "fag."
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm |
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why? not politically correct enough? ok, im going to go look for some skinny, 15 year old computer nerd who happens to have a sexual preference towards men.
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| Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:42 pm |
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Guest
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It is your responsibility to protect yourself against cheating. If you assume no one will cheat then you're a sucker setting yourself up to have someone cheat and take your money.
It's the same thing as not locking up your valuables or a woman who walks alone at night in a dangerous area by themselves. It's not your fault that there are bad people who do bad things but when you assume everyone is an angel and don't protect yourself that is a horrible mistake.
PS: for the flamewar guys just remember arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win you're still a retard
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:26 am |
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Guest
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Hmm, what about cheating at strip poker 
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:16 pm |
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BaZ
Flourish Contest III Desc Champ
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 929
Location: Outside the box |
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its only cheating if you get nicked
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:23 am |
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