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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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 Catching Cheaters Tutorial |
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I remember Eric wanted to have some sort of concrete catching cheats tutorial or section of the site, so I'm going to try to organize another compilation video...basically it would be broken down into different sections:
1) The deck
2) The shuffle
3) The cut
4) The deal
5) Changes
We could do a lot without exposing anything. If you have a video of any kind of gambling move, PM me.
I can make videos for the following
1) The deck--basic riffle test for markings, crimping (if that's exposure I won't include it)
2) The shuffle--retaining top and bottom stock, perfect faro (same goes for exposure)
3) The cut--up the ladder and other false cuts from Shade
4) The deal--my false deals are pretty sloppy, I'd prefer to use someone else's
5) Changes--same goes for changes...I'd have to practice for a month or two to get my changes down smooth
Post any thoughts, suggestions, whatever. And PM me if you want to help out.
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:35 pm |
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Eric
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 2482
Location: California |
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CLM, This looks like it will be a very interesting thread. I can't wait to see the video!
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:50 pm |
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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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Another thing I'd like to get input on...do you guys think we should have 1 large video, or a thread like TJ's chip trick thread with a list and separate vids?
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:53 pm |
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Eric
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 2482
Location: California |
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or a thread like TJ's chip trick thread with a list and separate vids? |
I vote for a sticky like Toe Jam's chip trick video thread. Having things broken up into itemized videos is good for the following reasons:
-better organized
-better for server bandwidth
-better for people with slow internet connections(instead of waiting for one big, long video they can just look at the small videos they are interested in).
-easier to modify(adding/removing videos over time is a piece of cake).
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:49 pm |
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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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Yep, I think that's a better idea as well. I'll start making some vids this weekend...if anyone has a video, post it here or PM me.
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:21 am |
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Thuzle
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Irvine, CA |
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Cheating can be done with moves that people can perfect to look exactly like normal card table practice. So even knowing partially what can be done to cheat doesn't mean you'll catch them if their doing something beyond what you know.
The thing that I've heard on how to catch cheaters is not to look for the moves, but to analyze the gameplay for a cheater. This works especially well with superbly marked cards. You can't see the mark, but the people play like they know something more and there ya go.
If you'd like more information on Cheating in a card game you can get Ortiz's Gambling Scams, Erdnase Expert at the Card Table, Forte Gambling Protection Series of videos, the Cardshark.us Site (Which uses much info from Ortiz's Gambling Scams and Sharps and Flats)
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:58 am |
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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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That's very true, but there are also things that anyone can look out for, like a false cut. If the guy starts doing all kinds of strange things while cutting, you know something is up. If he wanted to cut the deck straight up, he'd cut once. I'm not exactly sure how much we would want to post here without exposing...so I think it would be more of an "awareness" video. There won't be close angles or explanations.
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:09 pm |
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expertmagician
Straight Flush
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 446
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All you can really do without exposing technique is to do things like:
* Second deal (show top card) deal out several cards and show that the top card is still there
* Stacks - show aces on top and then shuffle and deal out 4-5 hands and show that your have all 4 aces
* Bottom - same as second deral except show aces on bottom and then show they were dealt to you
* False shuffles - separate red and blue then shuffle and show they are still separate
* false cuts - show top stack stays after cut
* Pass or shift - show aces on top, cut then shift/pass so they are back on top
Personally, I believe that showing what the moves look like is not that bad even if the demonstrator is poor. Why you may say ? Well a lay person may now be aware that these moves exist, but since he may me able to detect them happening on the video ... it will give him a false sense of security.
Now, if and when he encounters a good mechanic in a game, he will have a false sense of confidence and will really be taken to the cleaners because they thought they had some knowledge.
Remember the old saying...a little knowledge can be dangerous 
Another good example, if you look at the Luminous marked card I have next to this post a person may think that they know what Luminous cards really look like. Well, in reality, in my instructions I tell people not to write the names of the cards as shown in the photo in case someone else has a filter gimmick. In reality, real marks should look more like geometric shadows that are meaningless. So even if someone has a filter gimmick and looks for marks they should not suspect marks, just shadows.
Only you know what to look for. This is as detailed I am willing to get on the net.....sorry.
PS: Of course. you can write the value and suite as shown...but, I like to me more deceptive than that and hedge my bets against getting caught when performing magic for a knowledgeable audience.
PS: Also listen to Thuzle's advise...he is on target !
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:45 pm |
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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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All you can really do without exposing technique is to do things like:
* Second deal (show top card) deal out several cards and show that the top card is still there
* Stacks - show aces on top and then shuffle and deal out 4-5 hands and show that your have all 4 aces
* Bottom - same as second deral except show aces on bottom and then show they were dealt to you
* False shuffles - separate red and blue then shuffle and show they are still separate
* false cuts - show top stack stays after cut
* Pass or shift - show aces on top, cut then shift/pass so they are back on top
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That's what I was thinking..
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:42 pm |
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lazynator
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 118
Location: So. California |
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I'll probably make a video of my bottom deal, I've been working on it. I might also make one for a false cut and maybe riffle-stacking.
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:55 pm |
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Brandon!
Pair
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 8
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I just purchased and watched Shade today for the first time and I think the extras on the DVD are exactly what you're looking for. I'm sure you card guys have a DVD and can rip some of it... unless copyright issues is a problem
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| Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:10 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Where do you guys play that you have to worry so much about some loser cheating? Is this in home games? If so, then perhaps you need new friends!
_________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:49 am |
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expertmagician
Straight Flush
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 446
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I play on the "Death Star" with Darth Vador and friends
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:53 am |
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suprastyxx
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 114
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vader..and yea, get new friends if you are worried about them cheating. it just means they suck at poker... and at life
_________________
--Andrew-- |
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:01 am |
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Thuzle
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Irvine, CA |
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Common Mis-conception on cheaters is that they are bad at the various games they cheat at. That may hold true for some games like marbles, craps and such as they are mostly luck and thus anyone can be bad or good.
But to be an efficent/proficient and money-making cheater for the sake of your livelyhood you have to have at least a very healthy knowledge of the game you're looking to cheat.
That way you can learn which hands look natural, natural reactions and betting as so not to push others out of the pot. Getting the cards you need is only a small portion of any poker game, and it's difficult and stupid to cheat at betting the poker game (Such as String Betting, and its not like blackjack where you can add to the pot in order to get a higher payout. What you see is what you get, you could however bring in more chips to help with a tourney)
You still have to utilize positions, sand bagging, not so much reads anymore because you make it your best hand and getting the most money into the pot.
Now if you were a professional cheat you wouldn't even want to take all their money, but slowely fleece them of their cash and keep em in an enjoyable environment possibly by introducing certain hands to teh mix to provide excitment and funny stories.
Amateur cheaters are those that most people think about, the kind that take an advantage here and there when they can. Not the same, so don't lump us up.
Cedar
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:17 am |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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.....This is stupid
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:14 am |
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IanKendall
Chip Tricks Contest I Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 384
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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The problem is that most of this stuff is already on the web. Another thought is that if you are making a demonstration video you had better be _very_ good at what you are demming. As has been mentioned, a video of poor technique is not going to raise the profile of the site by much.
For excellence you could look at Dennis Behr's site (a Google will find him).
And yes, ripping Shade is a very bad thing to do...
Take care, Ian
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:21 pm |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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....This is a waist of time....if people wanted to learn how to spot cheating, you need to know how to cheat basically.
It usually leads to that anyway. Whatever....i dont feel like typing more...
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:37 pm |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:37 pm |
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icenix
Full House
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 51
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........
*sigh*
on the flip side...
i would actually like to see this video.
You get my vote.
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:16 pm |
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CLM
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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Looks like the majority doesn't want to have this video...
Just to clarify one thing...I can only speak for myself, but if I made any videos I wouldn't be exposing anything...the moves that I would add, I don't suck at, I can perform them well...its not like I'd be fumbling for a break on an Up the Ladder cut. Whatever, if that many people are against it, it won't happen.
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:49 pm |
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icenix
Full House
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 51
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i agree,
if you cant perform it don't do a video which can expose it.
but if you can then why not?
this whole exposure crap is being blown out of proportion.
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| Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:50 pm |
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MysteriousSid
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 14
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Best advice to not get cheated is to follow secure shuffling and dealing procedure. Put your faith in providence but cut the deck.
_________________
SID |
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:19 am |
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