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meijin
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA |
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 Paul Wilson's "The West Coast Slow" Invisible Pass |
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Has anyone seen this before or can comment on it? Not exposure, but how it rates to other passes and how it holds up to the claims that he makes.
Thanks for any info you can share!
Michael
ps - Here is the verbage Paul Wilson uses in the description for those that are interested:
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Ever needed to perform a pass invisibly? This is R. Paul Wilson's slow-motion invisible pass that can be performed as the audience burns your hands! Included is Paul's work on performing any classic pass instantly and valuable advice regarding "Any card at any number".
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Michael |
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:31 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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I haven't seen this, but you can perform most passes while people burn your hands if you perform them correctly, that's kind of the point, everything from a combination pass, turn-over pass, float pass, gambler's pass, riffle pass, dribble pass etc. They can generally be performed slowly too, so I have to wonder about the significance of yet another pass. The big issue generally isn't whether they can be performed invisibly, but rather the angles you have to work with, and the natural movement you use as cover, since while most passes are invisible, most people don't make use of the correct natural motion when they aren't doing the pass and thus the motion provides a tip-off to those who are in the know. The key then is really finding an excellent natural motion, using that motion a lot when you aren't doing passes, and perfecting the pass itself.
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:57 am |
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meijin
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Drey:
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.
I am pretty much a total newbie when it comes to pasteboard manipulations, but as I was watching Randy Wakeman's DVD on the pass, he pointed out several pass techniques (sorry, the names escape me as it has been a while since I watched it) that only work when the "audience" is in front of you as it is open to one side or the other. Others he showed are more shaded and can be done with people on the right and/or left. Examples he gave of this are the Riffle Pass, Table Pass and Jiggle Pass.
So, at this point I was just curious as to Paul Wilson's description for something that can be done with people in those positions and something that can be done more slowly as speed seems to be the biggest issue for a newbie once you have the technical movements down ok.
As to doing all of the pass/shift movements slowly (or that they can be done slowly) I must be missing something as in my, albeit, limited exposure some of them would not pass muster done that way. I would certainly defer to your experience and skill, but at this point I can't see that for all passes. Not sure what I am missing here...
...but I certainly appreciate any and all help!
Thanks again!
Michael
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Michael |
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:37 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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Randy Wakeman was a student of Marlo's and is a skilled card magician so I certainly won't say he is wrong, nor have I seen the DVD in question, but I find that often it is possible to make slight adjustments to the handling of moves, passes in particular, to correct some of the problems you are mentioning. Very often you are correct, passes require that the audience is in front of you, or, alternatively, to the side. Furthermore, there is virtually no pass, or any move in card magic really for that matter, that is entirely angle proof. A side steal for example is never angle proof from the bottom without exposing some other angle, but I would generally refer to it as an angle free sleight simply because a view from the bottom is so easy to control, the same could be said for a convincing control or virtually any palm, since fundamentally when you have a card or cards palmed they are visible from one direction or another, the art is in learning to manipulate both the audience and the cards as one so they compliment one another and leave a flawless performance.
Naturally, a classic pass is not really invisible from any angle, while a riffle pass, if you perform it well enough and quickly enough is invisible from all angles, in the sense that you can't distinguish that the pass occurred, though granted you are consistently aware that something has occurred.
But coming back to eliminating angle problems with adaptation, I find I can perform the combination pass where it is invisible except from an over the shoulder view, the same can be said for a float pass if you adapt it accordingly, and the gambler's pass is specifically designed so that if you are sitting at a table no one else sitting at it can see the move. In each of these cases, performing the pass slowly is, at least to some extent, not only possible, but desirable since you are covering the pass with a natural motion and the natural motion wouldn't be used quickly, for the combination pass this is a specific square up action, for the float pass this is an all round square up, and for the gambler's pass this is a certain square up action.
Granted, something like the riffle pass must be performed quickly, but passes like that are generally rare, for the most part the slowest speed is only limited to the natural speed of the cover motion, the end tap pass and spread pass (essentially the same thing) are good examples of this. I suppose one could even go so far as to argue that a riffle pass could be performed slowly, but doing so would mean basically turning the pass into another variation and adding the riffle action. Then you can get into really none standard passes that work even more effectively like this.
You might wish to look into Aaron Fisher's work.
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:19 pm |
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kodiak2
3 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 26
Location: NY |
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What are some places that teach the gambler's pass and combination pass? I have heard of them but have never seen them taught in the stuff at places I usually buy at.
I think that a good riffle pass should do well and be very hard to see. There is also the tap shift that I like very much and could be invisible except that you will know that something has been done if you yourelf know about it. I also, think that the jiggle pass is good excpet sometimes it draws undue attentoin to the deck with its movement
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| Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:04 pm |
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Drey
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Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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I have no idea where you can learn the gambler's pass, you can learn the combination pass from one of the Marlo DVDs, either "The Legend" or "The Cardician", it's basically what is referred to by those who tend to purchase Ellusionist content as the invisible pass (that isn't the correct name for it). It is apparently sometimes called the dip pass as well. However, none of these sources seem to cover all angles from what I've seen, though they do give some good tips, particularly on Marlo's part. I know he also covers it in one of the Marlo magazines, though again, I'd recommend some additional refinement, very similar to Steven Youell's Mongrel Pass.
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| Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:16 am |
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meijin
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Drey:
Thanks for the response. I see the points you are making.
When you refer to Aaron Fisher's work...I am not familiar with him, but would assume you are referring to Paper Engine? I did some Google work and based strictly on the descriptions I can read, that is all I could come up with. If it is something else, please let me know.
Do you have any knowledge of Gary Ouellet and his pass work? I got a good deal on eBay for a book and video he did, so that should be coming to me soon. Also, I was looking at Pass With Care by Peter Cassford. Any comments on that or him?
Also, it probably helps to know that I am more into the gambling effects (ala Darwin Ortiz, Fernando Keops, Richard Turner, etc.) more than "straight" magic.
Thanks again for the help and comments! I am looking forward to more information on this.
Michael
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Michael |
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| Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:40 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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Yeah, Aaron Fisher has a certain ""approach" to this stuff that is helpful in improving some of the techniques I find. The Paper Engine is his one published book. He also has a DVD out called Control Freak or some such thing that I haven't seen, but it is supposed to be very good.
I've heard of Gary Ouellet's pass work, but I haven't seen it myself. I would suggest to you that probably it will be more magic focused than gambling oriented, but I'm not entirely sure.
I've never even heard of the Peter Cassford material so I'd be interested to hear what you think of it and how it compares with other material.
If you're looking at passes for gambling applications that changes things considerably in my view. I personally don't believe in using some of the many passes such as riffle passes at the card table and to be honest, it's move difficult even to use the front angle when your movements are restricted by a table, not to mention that fact that you really need a pass that covers you from any position at the table. I'll sometimes use a combination pass simply because I'm familiar with it and it avoids the general angle concerns. An end tap pass using a table is effective if you turn to deal just before you perform the pass, but the problem I have with it is that I simply don't see people using that tapping motion when they aren't performing a pass, in fact when the deck is virtually square I don't feel it makes much sense at all. You can modify the action into a brushing motion turn-over pass, but it really only works when there is something to brush and only once because it isn't an inherent action of holding the cards, so repeating it isn't a good idea. Alternatively, if you can get away with it, as Marlo suggests (and teaches in either The Cardician or The Legend), you could use a table edge pass, which, although it won't work well in a tight environment, is great for a casual environment.
Really though, aside from tabled passes which I don't like because I feel they are unduely complicated, I feel a gambler's pass is the best way to go at the card table, it is afterall what it is meant for. The motion is slower yes, but it is more natural and can be repeated unlimited times. I suppose you could try an improved float pass, but again, I don't really feel an all round square up is justified when the deck is fairly well squared to begin with.
Other styles of passes would be another option, it all depends on the circumstances really. I like two part passes because of their invisibility, but they don't suit the card table very well, the same goes for some of the other very angle free passes. The final option that one might consider are passes later on, but they tend to be considerably more difficult in my view.
Though it is demonstration only, you might want to consider checking out Richard Turner's The Cheat DVD, which involves many pass demonstrations.
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| Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:14 am |
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meijin
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Drey:
I went ahead and picked up the Gary Ouellet and Peter Cassford pass products. Shoot me a PM if you'd be interested in working out a method for you to check them out as I would be very interested in your opinion and might provide a platform for me to better understand your comments on the pass.
Thanks!
Michael
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Michael |
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:53 am |
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