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jesse
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 89
Location: Planet MELMAC |
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 The BEST way of cheating! |
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Hi!
When I cheat, the only method I use is stacking the cards.
Overhand stacking. We play No-Limit Hold´em, so it is easy to stack the cards because no one will ever ask for new cards and so on...
I mainly use the undercut-version where you take the bottom card with your second and third finges and the top card with the thumb.
Often the top card becomes a Burn Card.
What technique would you guys consider to be the most effective way of cheating. Stacking? Bottom dealing? Mucking?
Of course, this answer will be different when you play other games.
For draw and stud poker I assume Bottom dealing would be the ultimate.
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:53 am |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Are these friends of yours that you are cheating 'stealing' against?
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:39 am |
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expertmagician
Straight Flush
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 446
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Even though I sell luminous, juice, flash and daub used to mark cards. I do dot encurage that you use it to cheat at cards......try performing magic.
As you know, using any magic trick or any other method to cheat is illegal and immoral. Not that I am here to lecture you.....but, how you plan on using your expertize and knowledge should be kept to yourself and let your concious be your guide.
I know many magicians who can stack, deal seconds, bottoms and even centers, etc. but, do not use this talent to cheat (even though they can easily do so).
That's my 2 cents for what it is worth.
Last edited by expertmagician on Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:39 am |
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Sreename
Royal Flush
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 1642
Location: Netherlands |
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Cheating = Bad 
Dealing clean = Good 
Cheaters = Noobz 
Experience = 1337 
Sreen 
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WE LOVE ERIC! |
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:39 am |
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expertmagician
Straight Flush
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 446
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Sreename, I have a free clip of that song on my web site's pricing page......in case you are interested.
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:42 am |
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Sreename
Royal Flush
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 1642
Location: Netherlands |
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Thanks but I got it already, even got the remix of it
But thank you anyway
Sreen
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WE LOVE ERIC! |
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:31 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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We play No-Limit Hold´em, so it is easy to stack the cards because no one will ever ask for new cards and so on...
Texas Hold'em certainly is easier to cheat at than many games.
Overhand stacking.
Overhand stacking is alright, but if you get good at riffle stacking I find I greatly prefer riffle stacking, especially considering there are often less potential tip off and you don't need to switch from one method to another since fundamentally overhand culling can tend to be a bit of a bitch depending partially on what other methods you are using and even then tends to include more tip offs.
What technique would you guys consider to be the most effective way of cheating. Stacking? Bottom dealing? Mucking?
It depends on a great many things, for one, how savvy and cautious your audience is. Simple things like whether they are going to want to cut the deck after the shuffle get factored into the process as well as how much prep you have, what your purpose is, how sure you want to be of success. Generally I use a lot of bottom or greek dealing along with riffle culling, though honestly adding a riffle stack to the process is incredibly easy and so shouldn't be discounted. Naturally with any of these methods combining a discard stack can be helpful. I find mucking if you can get away with it can be nice in that it allows you to win on someone else's deal when their feelings of control are greater.
Depending again on the situation coolers can be nice. Marked cards if you have them and can use them are decent except that they just give you an edge in play rather than actually assuring you victory so it's somewhat of a different approach, the same could be said for double dealing which I tend not to like.
Cheaters = Noobz
By tha logic John Scarne or Ed Marlo would be "noobz" when they were cheating, somehow I don't think so.
The morality issue is another interesting one, but it is interesting to note that cheating tends to differ considerably, depending on the environment, than just gaining certain cheating skills, and I certainly wouldn't encourage you to use cheating a method of theft. Then again, another interesting side of the whole discussion revolves around the fact that many people consider gambling in itself to be immoral so...
Ultimately, to answer the question of the thread, I don't think there is a "best way to cheat", it all depends on a large number of things, and psychology cannot be discounted either.
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:31 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Then again, another interesting side of the whole discussion revolves around the fact that many people consider gambling in itself to be immoral so... |
Who? Why?
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:22 pm |
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jesse
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 89
Location: Planet MELMAC |
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| Drey rules!!! |
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Hi!
I just want to say that Drey is the most respectable and kindest guy on this board! Great reply Drey! Thx!
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Got cat? |
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:33 am |
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larrylum
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Singapore |
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Haha, When someone ans your questions in your way, you respect them?
Okie okie, simply dont cheat so much, you will get burnt in short time. And false shuffles are always good in stacking, no matter which one, juz need to make it natural.
Dealing wise, same, if u are good, it wont matter it is bottom, middle or top. You will be controlling the deck in anyway u want.
But in the end, still not good to be cheating.
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Magic is an art, not a professionism.
David Kim -- Nothing is Impossible, Impossible is nothing Done. |
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:09 am |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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I can tell by these posts none of you have any knowledge of real cheating. GOOD LUCK.
'Nuff said.
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:39 am |
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jesse
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 89
Location: Planet MELMAC |
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Cardcontroller, can´t you teach us all real cheating then, because you seem to posses some much knowledge on the subject! Ha Loser!
Stop being such an idiot and give some good answers.
We might not have made so many posts, but half of your "posts" are bullshit and ignorant comments!
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Got cat? |
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:40 am |
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Maverick
Straight Flush
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 620
Location: Sareyville, New Jersey |
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Card Controller why would you make a post just to put people down especially if u are contributing no help, info, or at least constructive criticism
mayb you should at least advise somewhere to start since according to you we know nothing about cheating unless you are jus being misunderstood and ur true intention was to wish us all luck
but as far as i see CC has no right to put people down because he has not even proven to hold any knowledge of anything as far as his recent posts
if u claim ur that good i would like to see a video hopefully
Jesse as a new member you should realize that we don't appreciate name calling or harrassing towards other members you should learn to earn your spot
as far as Cheating, it is as immoral as the game is as some people say and if you wanna learn some very nice card controls and cheats you should look into Lennart Green Volume 1 or the Card Shark video
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:53 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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Who? Why?
Tons of people, mostly religious in my experience, as I recall gambling is even banned in some middle eastern countries.
I'm not going to try to explain their views to you completely, I would inevitably fail and do their positions less than the justice they deserve, but one of the big arguments I have heard relates to the very addictive nature of gambling and the devestation that causes to many individuals and families.
Jesse
I just want to say that Drey is the most respectable and kindest guy on this board! Great reply Drey! Thx!
Thank you, try to be just as kind and respectable.
cardcontroller
I can tell by these posts none of you have any knowledge of real cheating. GOOD LUCK.
I tend to question how much you know about the subject, but anyway, there is a good point in there. Namely, there is a difference between knowing sleights and knowing about cheating. There was an interesting interview with Steve Forte where he was discussing how a lot of magicians know more about sleights (zarrow shuffles, push-through shuffles, false deals etc.) than professional cheats, but the magicians lack the cheater's knowledge of how to effectively apply those techniques. That can be an interesting perspective on the whole subject, cheating is a lot more than knowing sleights. One might examine hand mucking for example. Learning to perform mucks is one thing, but learning when to perform those mucks is quite another and things like returning cards to the deck and holding out are other considerations as well.
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:40 pm |
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cardcontroller
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Stars 16's & 27's |
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Card Controller why would you make a post just to put people down especially if u are contributing no help, info, or at least constructive criticism |
This is why Im such an ass. People don’t seem to actually READ my post. I make them so simple, I couldn't be more blunt. I explain a lot in one sentence, there is meaning there, you have to think. Maybe they're to blunt, I must be doing something wrong.
This is how you idiots read my post.
none of you have any knowledge. GOOD LUCK.
'Nuff said.
God! What an asshole! Grrrrrrrrr!
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mayb you should at least advise somewhere to start since according to you we know nothing about cheating unless you are jus being misunderstood and ur true intention was to wish us all luck |
Im not advising anyone on cheating. Im not carrying anyones bullshit. It's going to be you're problem, keep it to yourself. No one cares if you cheat you're friends, and no one thinks you're cool.
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but as far as I see CC has no right to put people down because he has not even proven to hold any knowledge of anything as far as his recent posts
if u claim ur that good I would like to see a video hopefully |
Again I never put anyone down, for the last time read my posts twice if they are that difficult before posting stupid bullshit.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said I was good, actually you don't even know my skill level.
You may have a vague sense of it, maybe dreamt of it at night....me taking all your money and saying "damn he's good".....ok ok, getting cocky, enough! Got to stay humble -- Iam humble. 
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Cardcontroller, cańt you teach us all real cheating then, because you seem to posses some much knowledge on the subject! Ha Loser!
Stop being such an idiot and give some good answers.
We might not have made so many posts, but half of your "posts" are bullshit and ignorant comments! |
Who's the one making the ignorant comments, honestly? Look that friggin' word up for the sake of me making fun of you.
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cardcontroller
I can tell by these posts none of you have any knowledge of real cheating. GOOD LUCK.
I tend to question how much you know about the subject, but anyway, there is a good point in there. Namely, there is a difference between knowing sleights and knowing about cheating. There was an interesting interview with Steve Forte where he was discussing how a lot of magicians know more about sleights (zarrow shuffles, push-through shuffles, false deals etc.) than professional cheats, but the magicians lack the cheater's knowledge of how to effectively apply those techniques. That can be an interesting perspective on the whole subject, cheating is a lot more than knowing sleights. |
Wow, drey should get an award. WE LOVE YOU DREY!
There ya go bitches. 'Nuff said.
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:32 pm |
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jayhawker108
2 Pairs
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Denver |
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Actually, cardcontroller, you did infer that you knew something about card manipulation, because of your arrogant disposition, not to mention something as topical as your screenname "cardcontroller". As far as the actual topic of this thread is concerned. . . I have found that depending on circumstances, second dealing can be the most effective method of cheating. It is also far more difficult to detect than bottom dealing unless you're really a polished card shark. To adress the morality issue, to some extent, I agree with the theory that it's immoral to ler a sucker keep his money, and I don't know how many people would disagree with that notion. As far as my own play is concerned though, I stopped giving myself and my buddies a decided advantage namely because like many other poker players, I'm pretty superstitious and figured the poker gods would begin to frown on me Good luck with your cheats, don't get caught, but don't forget the best players don't neccesarily need those cards to win.
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Hi my name is Sean Daley and you might know me from such films as “I Can’t Sing But Neither Can You”
www.littletonpoker.tk |
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| Mon May 02, 2005 12:35 pm |
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Maverick
Straight Flush
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 620
Location: Sareyville, New Jersey |
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cardcontroller u jus gotta learn to chill out plz for the sake of all the members
who have issues with you
i really have no intentions with starting with you but it always turns out after you leave a comment, it seems to stir trouble
if you can jus at least try and think of what you post b4 you post it
thats all im saying here
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| Mon May 02, 2005 1:20 pm |
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expertmagician
Straight Flush
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 446
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Drey,
I am happy to hear that the middle eastern customers that I have are using www.marked-cards.com marked cards for magic and entertainment purposes since gambling is illegal in middle eastern countries.
Of course, people in that part of the world would never do anything illegal.
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| Mon May 02, 2005 2:05 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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Expertmagician
It would be nice to hear that they aren't stealing, again, I have no problems with cheating if it isn't done at the expense of others. And yes, naturally people everywhere do things that are illegal, it should be pointed out that if you are going to cheat you are probably also willing to gamble whether it is illegal or not.
Also, as far as I know gambling isn't illegal everywhere in the middle east, though I believe the UAE would be one example of where it is, and I have read that the muslim faith forbids it.
It is noteworthy that apparently even places in the US make it illegal, for example the New York State constitution forbids it in most cases, though I am not intimately familiar with the details.
jayhawker108
I have found that depending on circumstances, second dealing can be the most effective method of cheating. It is also far more difficult to detect than bottom dealing unless you're really a polished card shark.
That depends, I find it's harder to perform a second deal than a bottom deal in a lot of regards, it is also noteworthy that a second deal is not as useful as a bottom deal, at least in my opinion.
To adress the morality issue, to some extent, I agree with the theory that it's immoral to ler a sucker keep his money
I disagree, I think the logic behind that premise is flawed, fundamentally you are taking advantage of someone and while educating them may be a good thing, that is not the best way to go about doing so.
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| Mon May 02, 2005 3:46 pm |
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coo1234
Pair
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 5
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don't cheat
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| Tue May 03, 2005 12:49 pm |
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z3n_mast3r
Full House
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 63
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yes mommy, and I swear i wont tear the tags of of my matresses as well..
_________________
"in the poker game of life, women are the fu*king rake" |
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| Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:42 pm |
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Michael Marino
Magic Tricks Contest I Champ
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 258
Location: Springfield, VA |
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| Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:41 am |
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meijin
2 Pairs
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA |
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I have to agree with Drey on the morality issue...I grew up in the South and most of my family is Southern Baptist. They consider any form of wagering on a game of chance to be a "sin". This is true of the vast majority of fundamentalist based Christian religions (Baptist, Pentacostal, etc.). Why do you think it took so long and was so difficult to get lotteries established in the Southern states? And the laws regarding casinos where they have to be on the water is a direct result of this line of thinking.
As to the best method of cheating, I would say that there isn't one and it is like discussing a hand of poker...it is situational and will depend greatly on that situation. I was watching one of Darwin Ortiz's older videos the other day and I believe he put it very well. You need to have a number of tools in the box available to you. You then have to observe the table that you are working and see what shuffling and cutting methods are being used. To avoid standing out, use those methods as your base. If everyone is using a table riffle, yours is not going to stand out. But, if you do an overhand it is likely to. Also, alot is going to depend on if you are working with a partner or alone.
Michael
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Michael |
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:03 am |
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kodiak2
3 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 26
Location: NY |
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As stated in the first post, I think it depends on the game. for bj, the use of marked cards or glimpses combined with false deals can be useful. In loose games with inexpereiened players, probably overhand stacking because then you will not look too professionol of everyone else is shuffling in the hands. Personally, I think bottom dealing be this would really only work in soft games unless your base deal is virtually undetectable. In some games where you can't get away with stacking because there are very strict rules on cutting and so forth, glimpses are something that you may be able to get away with, although they won't deliver you a sure hand.
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"A word to the wise isn't nessescary, it's the stupid ones who need advise."
Bill Cosby |
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:42 pm |
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felkajamine
Pair
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 8
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sheesh, all he was doing was making conversation...what gives.
why was the first reply a stupid question about how or who he was cheating. damn. what's it to ya? if he cheats then ohh well, what are you going to do? pray for him? it doesn't matter, just continue his convo. and reply to his question. or has everyone already forgot about the posed question in the first post? wether it's in moral or not, what are you going to do? got to school to become a judge, don't get on everyone's ass who you even suspect to be immoral...becomeing a jdge shouldn't take too long...good luck
sheesh....let me guess, now you guy's are going to attack me...ahh hell
well to answer the posed quesion.
i prefer marked cards in most cases, but im also getting into the different deals, and looking more into hold-outs. but when possible i choose the collusion route, which my brother and I both are playing as one player, unknown to the other players.
anyway, let the the whoreing begin 
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~felkajamine~ |
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:36 pm |
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kodiak2
3 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 26
Location: NY |
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i prefer marked cards in most cases, but im also getting into the different deals, and looking more into hold-outs. but when possible i choose the collusion route, which my brother and I both are playing as one player, unknown to the other players.
anyway, let the the whoreing begin |
i don't think that false deals(except maybe seconds are near the top) will hardly ever pass in fast company. Bottom deals for instance are too easy to detect as well as other deals such as middles and greeks and some double deals I guess. I also don't think that holding out(unless you mean mechanical ones) is used in a game either. It is very risky. If someone suspects you and they make you show open your hand that has cards in it, there is not much you can do to convince them of anything. palms might be used once in a while for a few seconds while the deck is being cut and the top/bottom stock is being palmed off. However, collusion is ver good because it is very hard to prove and to detect. Marked cards are also I think used a lot by pro cheats. But it also depends on the type of marked deck. generally I favor stacking, occasional glimpses, and other forms of cheating that are harder to detect, prove. I don't have a good marked deck yet unfourtuantely
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"A word to the wise isn't nessescary, it's the stupid ones who need advise."
Bill Cosby |
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:42 pm |
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halcon
Flush
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 49
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Kodiak any false deal will pass in fast company, it all depends on the skill level of the mechanic.
who do you consider fast company? I wouldn't consider today's poker pros "fast company" for that matter I wouldn't consider people who play regularly "fast company." these people spend to much time concentrating on the game. most of them don't even know what to look for or even that such a thing may exist.
Jason England tells the story about the "shade" premier when he was showing some stuff to two poker players. those two players admittedly said that he would break them if he was dealing. Jason knew that they would eat him on straight up play. those two players... Phil Hellmuth and Chris Ferguson.
I have played with magicians who one might consider to be fast company. I base and greeked many times without them so much as even looking funny at me.
of course I also spend a lot of time practicing... probably more than most.
Halcon
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:13 pm |
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marpenothi
Card Tricks Contest VIII Champ
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 1721
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota |
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Alright heres the best way to cheat...
go to a home game with a bunch of fish/dumbasses, which isnt hard to find these days...offer to deal because everyone else is lazy and doesnt want to...then just hold the cards under the table and stack it for yourself, or when everyones watching the TV thats on in the background, switch a couple cards. There, you take down the house and call it a night.
Marp
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:23 pm |
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z3n_mast3r
Full House
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 63
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with the boom of poker its become easier then ever to cheat. You can literally walk into any bar in my city now and find a game, its almost ridiculous, so anyone with a good deck of marked cards and a chipset can sit down and make a killing, although most of the time i win straight up.
If i see an edge i will use it to my advantage, poker is not known to be a game of honesty.
and wtf, how did this thread get to talking about crazy baptists???
man if i only had a big red button....
_________________
"in the poker game of life, women are the fu*king rake" |
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:11 pm |
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marpenothi
Card Tricks Contest VIII Champ
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 1721
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota |
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The big red button you have is on each of the tits of the chick in your avatar
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| Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:24 pm |
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kodiak2
3 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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Kodiak any false deal will pass in fast company, it all depends on the skill level of the mechanic.
who do you consider fast company? I wouldn't consider today's poker pros "fast company" for that matter I wouldn't consider people who play regularly "fast company." these people spend to much time concentrating on the game. most of them don't even know what to look for or even that such a thing may exist.
Jason England tells the story about the "shade" premier when he was showing some stuff to two poker players. those two players admittedly said that he would break them if he was dealing. Jason knew that they would eat him on straight up play. those two players... Phil Hellmuth and Chris Ferguson.
I have played with magicians who one might consider to be fast company. I base and greeked many times without them so much as even looking funny at me.
of course I also spend a lot of time practicing... probably more than most.
Halcon |
I think fast company is people in usually a high stakes game who are quite familiar with gambling moves. This are observant players who know what to look for etc. but can't necesarliy do the moves themselves.
your right that any false deal will pass as long as the cheat is very good, but my point is that very few people I think have false deals that are that good. Of course, many bottoms or other risky moves will pass in soft games or in front of people that are not sure of what to look for and so on. I just think that dealing bottoms/or shifting cuts is a risk in some games that should not be taken unless the move is perfected. On another forum someone mentioned how at 20 he thought of himself as a very skilled mechanic and went to vegas where he met many huslters and skilled cheats that had been in the game for years. when he asked them things like their favorite ways of dealing bottoms, shifting, palming and the like they just laughed and said those things were rarely attempted in an actual game. Of course, these were pro cheats who played in a very observant crowd so they had to master things to a higher degree to use them. Basically, I think that bottoms( I think that seconds can be just about undetectable so those can be used and are used a lot by bust out dealers and stuff) and centers and shifts can be very useful in "soft" games or games with laymen, but stacking, culling, collusion and having a partner cut at crimps is safer than other methods. Anyways, different people believe in different forms of cheating 
_________________
"A word to the wise isn't nessescary, it's the stupid ones who need advise."
Bill Cosby |
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| Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:09 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 696
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I'd certainly argue that bottoms, Greeks, centers etc. can pass virtually as well as seconds depending on the method and execution. I'd also point out that marked cards will leave hard evidence of the fact, the same can theoretically be said about crimps.
Now as to your story, I have to wonder about this fixation with Vegas. Vegas is big for real gambling...the kind of gambling where cheating via sleight of hand is virtually impossible. Don't believe me? Try walking into any major casino on the strip and watching to see how you could cheat. Notice that in most games you aren't ever allowed to touch the cards, automatic shuffling machines are used, there is close recorded camera observation being applied to some of the most difficult angles for both players and dealers, it's no wonder that the craze if you can call it such, is advantage play much more than actual cheating. And if you aren't talking about legitimate gambling in the formal sense? Then why Las Vegas? Any other place can offer effective "back room" games.
As several people have said, it all depends on the environment etc. Ultimately though, I fail to see how you can praise really effective culling or second dealing and not support effective shifts and bottom deals.
Finally, I'd point out that most of the technology related methods haven't really been mentioned.
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| Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:24 pm |
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