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jesse
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 89
Location: Planet MELMAC |
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 Darwin Ortiz, the best? |
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Hi!
I have watched the video "Darwin Ortiz On Card cheating" a few times now, and I must say, I am so impressed! That guy is the king of card manipulation.
After watching this video, you realize how good a card mechanic can become. By the way, the words "card mechanic", do they refer to a person who manipulates the deck for cheating purposes, or just any magician?
I have the books Erdnase, Royal Road to Card Magic etc. but nowhere I can find the "up-the-ladder" cut. Darwin Ortiz does this as a false cut, and it looks VERY convincing when done smooth. Any help?
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:45 am |
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niiro13
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Illinois |
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Card Mechanics are the people who can manipulate cards for cheating purposes.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:51 am |
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user125
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 159
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nirro13, if you have the money you can purchase one of the dai vernon videos. They explain the up the ladder cut very well. However, I did get a chance to see "Darwin Ortiz on card cheating" from a friend. and he explains how its done. As for whether its in erdnase' book. I asked a friend to check his book for it and I don't believe it exists.
On a side note, darwin makes everything look good lol. If you really want to learn this move, just keep looking at that section of the video. I've tried to do it many times and this one is just all about practice. Your fingers need to be able to pick and grab those cards quickly and smoothly, otherwise it'll just fall all over the place. If you keep replaying that video I think you'll be able to catch what he does. If you're still having alot of trouble let me know.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:09 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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Roberto Giobbi's "Card College" also explains the up-the-ladder cut (and many variations)
Daryl's "Encyclopedia of Card Sleights" also explains the up-the-ladder-cut
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:14 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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Up the ladder is taught in Allan Ackerman's Advanced Card Technique series, I believe it is volume 5, the DVD on false shuffling anyway.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:44 am |
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marpenothi
Card Tricks Contest VIII Champ
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 1721
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota |
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I did some looking around, and found this...
http://www.expertmagic.com/html/store/cardshark/cardshark.html
Weapons of the Cardshark with Jeff Wessmiller. Looks like I quality vid with tons of moves shown and explained, and the trailer looks convincing.
If anyone owns this or has any input or feedback about it, be sure to let me and the rest of the forum know what its like 
Marp
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:12 pm |
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niiro13
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 240
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Actually, user125, jesse was asking about it, not me. 
Anyways, Richard Turner's "The Cheat" DVD I heard was good for seeing the moves. Of course its not so much as a teaching video, but I heard it is still learnable.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:45 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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Weapons of the Cardshark with Jeff Wessmiller. Looks like I quality vid with tons of moves shown and explained, and the trailer looks convincing.
Looks interesting, I may get that just out of curiosity. The initial hand muck in the trailer was quite nice, though there was a bit of flash initially, the bottom deal was bad, the second deal was pretty good, the false shuffle looked good, the false cut was cool, the riffle stacking was very smooth, though it's too bad he wasn't stacking four of a kind instead as it wasn't a particularly challenging stack.
Based on the material, I've never heard of the spider shuffle so I'd be interested to know what that is, it's always interesting to find out what methods others use for stacking and deck switching.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:46 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Weapons of the Cardshark with Jeff Wessmiller. Looks like I quality vid with tons of moves shown and explained, and the trailer looks convincing.
Looks interesting, I may get that just out of curiosity. The initial hand muck in the trailer was quite nice, though there was a bit of flash initially, the bottom deal was bad, the second deal was pretty good, the false shuffle looked good, the false cut was cool, the riffle stacking was very smooth, though it's too bad he wasn't stacking four of a kind instead as it wasn't a particularly challenging stack.
Based on the material, I've never heard of the spider shuffle so I'd be interested to know what that is, it's always interesting to find out what methods others use for stacking and deck switching. |
If you get it please let us know how it is...I am considering buying it myself but would'nt mind a review or 2 before hand.
Thanks.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:17 pm |
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user125
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 159
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My buddy has this.. He wasn't too impressed.. If you already have a book or any other tutorial video then you might not like it as much... or so he says.. I only got a chance to see very little of it... but I like darwin the best (note, he doesn't show it step by step like jeff though)
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:35 pm |
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lazynator
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 118
Location: So. California |
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Hi guys, been a long while since I last posted. I'm not too sure about the variation the up-the-ladder cut Ortiz does in the video but in "Darwin Ortiz At The Card Table", he teaches a variation of the cut that he says was taught to him by a cardshark. I think its pretty deceptive.
I'm also thinking about purchasing that video, although I will have to put more thought in to my purchases.
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:19 pm |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Jeff Wessmiller |
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Lat week I bought the dvd: "Weapons of the Card Shark" by Jeff Wessmiller.
When I first saw the trailer, I dind't expect much of it.
As Drey was saying, the bottom deal was bad. I was surprised that when I watched the dvd, the bottom deal looked much better then on the demo.
What I do like about the dvd:
-Wessmiller
I think it's very important to like the man who's dvd you're watching.
He's very young, I guess about my age , but he has nice presentation, natural.
-The moves:
He explains well, and the moves are tó the point, nothing too fancy.
-The Cheat in real game play
It's nice to see how the moves work in a "real" game. He gives some comments while you watch the scene (about 15-20 minutes)
The length:
93 minutes is nice, especially when he shows that many moves.
Wat I don't like:
-"This is the BIBLE of card cheating"
This is a bit exaggerated. He explains some nice moves that I never seen on dvd before, but the Bible,...no.
Ofcourse this sentence is a for promotion.
-Ribbon Spread
His cards are so bend that the spread looks rather funny 
That's all. Very nice dvd
The only thing I noticed when I watched his demo, (besides bottom deal), was that it looked a bit odd too me. I couldn't say what seemed odd to me at first. But when I looked again I noticed that he has larger fingers than other magicians. Some friends of mine have this too. The moves they make er good, but seem a bit awkward because of the fingers. It is the build he has. Tall, skinny, I have the same build. I think it's nice to see that this guy performs great things, and that it doesn't matter if your hands/finger are larger then average. You can perform magic anyway.
@Drey
Spider Shuffle is a shuffle he came up with. He named it the spider shuffle because of the postition the fingers are in: Like a spider.
I think you'll find it interesting as well.
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Last edited by Tom Ace on Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:46 am |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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| Re: Jeff Wessmiller |
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-"This is the BIBLE of card cheating"
This is a bit exaggerated. He explains some nice moves that I never seen on dvd before, but the Bible,...no.
Ofcourse this sentence is a for promotion.
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If this is'nt the 'Bible' ...what would you say is?
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:54 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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Well, for dvd's I do not have a "Bible" in mind.
Many people consider "expert at the card table" as the "Bible".
If you call your book or dvd the "Bible" of card cheating , in my opinion, it has to be all about card cheating. Every move should be explained well.
I should not call it the Bible, encylopedia is better I think.
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:38 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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user125
but I like darwin the best (note, he doesn't show it step by step like jeff though)
Well, Darwin is also evidently better than Jeff which considerably more experience so...
Tom Ace
Thanks for the information and for commenting on the length as I was looking for something that mentioned how long it is, though 93 minutes seems a bit short to me.
The only thing I noticed when I watched his demo, (besides bottom deal), was that it looked a bit odd too me. I couldn't say what seemed odd to me at first. But when I looked again I noticed that he has larger fingers than other magicians. Some friends of mine have this too. The moves they make er good, but seem a bit awkward because of the fingers. It is the build he has. Tall, skinny, I have the same build. I think it's nice to see that this guy performs great things, and that it doesn't matter if your hands/finger are larger then average. You can perform magic anyway.
A lot of really skillful card magicians seem to have long fingers like that, I noticed in for example with Denis Behr in his demo clips. I suspect it creates some major difficulties when it comes to palming (consequently hand mucking) due to windows between the fingers, I noticed this on the demo clip where he flashes the palmed card at the beginning before performing the hand muck.
Spider Shuffle is a shuffle he came up with. He named it the spider shuffle because of the postition the fingers are in: Like a spider.
Is it a good shuffle in your opinion, based on other shuffles you've seen such as a push through, zarrow shuffle etc.?
I think you'll find it interesting as well.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, I bought that unripped thing they were selling yesterday out of interest instead, which was certainly clever in terms of the method.
Chipmaster
If this is'nt the 'Bible' ...what would you say is?
As far as I know there isn't one in terms of card cheating, although you might consider looking into Steve Forte's "A Comprehensive Guide to Casion Protection", which is probably the single greatest source of information on cheating, but it isn't directly tailored to card cheating.
You might say in some regards that the collective works of Marlo "Seconds, Centers & Bottoms" along with "The Riffle Shuffle Systems" could form a very good basis, but that leaves out a bunch of other ideas.
Basically a true "bible" of card cheating should include a detailed explanation of stacking and culling, dealing, hand mucking and deck switching, nullifying the cut, and psychology, I'm not aware of a source that really covers all of this in terms of a teaching source, you have to go for multiple sources.
I certainly wouldn't call this an encyclopedia either, it simply doesn't teach enough methods. Darwin demonstrates what, 60 techniques? in his demonstration series and there are many more that can be learned, though they don't need to be included for a bible, just an encyclopedia, a bible would just teach the best and teach it well.
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:26 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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And as we all know, Drey is writing his ebook. Maybe this will become the new "Bible" of card cheating
About the Spider Shuffle.
It is not as nice as a push through shuffle.
But, it is a nice new fresh shuffle. It may look a bit awkward, but with his long fingers it can look like a natural shuffle
It is actually a strip out. The knuckles of the two first fingers touch eachother for some cover. The hand placement is important says Jeff.
The right thumb does the strip out gently.
I don't think it is a shuffle you will use very often. But as I sais, I think it's a nice variation 
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:38 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Steve Forte |
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About Steve Forte.
I only know that he has his protection series on video tape.
Does anyone know if they will be on dvd soon?
I haven't seen his tapes yes, and I know they cost a lot of money, so I'd rather have them on dvd.
Thanks.
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:42 am |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Thanks for the info guys. I don't know if I will get it. I have no desire to cheat but I like the moves for perhaps incorporating into a magic routine or just showing off at the Poker Table.
I just don't know if I will have the dedication right now to learn all of the moves well enough to perform them. I know moves like seconds, centers, and bottom take a great deal of dedication and practice.
Thanks again.
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:03 am |
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user125
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 159
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Lol.. I haven't even begain trying bottom, let alone center dealing.. Darwin says in one of his films.. Center deal has acheieved mythical status. He says you gotta practice for 10 years.. I'm still trying to nail down the push through without being detected. Jeff uses all his fingers to cover it but Darwin leaves it wide open and its still impressive.
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:44 am |
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IanKendall
Chip Tricks Contest I Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 384
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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Jay's DVD has it's ups and downs - it's been discussed on the Cafe and a couple of closed fora. Some bits I enjoyed, some I did not and others I disagreed with wholeheartedly.
A question that has been asked many times, each answer I've seen indicates that Forte has no plans to put GPS on DVD anytime soon (or ever).
As for long fingers; I have long and slender fingers. Palming cards is not too bad, but I find the gambler's palm (note: not the cop) to be difficult during a muck. My little and ring fingers have a hard time holding the card in place...
Take care, Ian
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:37 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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and others I disagreed with wholeheartedly.
Take care, Ian |
care to elaborate?
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:06 pm |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Fingers |
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@Ian
Indeed, when I first watched your video's I noticed something, but I didn't know what it was. Now I know it's your long(er) fingers. The most magicians I've seen on dvd are Daryl, Ammar, Darwin, Vernon, Kaps etc.
None of them has those long fingers. So when I watched Jeff's tape, I noticed it again. Where I can stretch my finger in full lenght, he has some "space" left and must curl his finger in a bit.
Maybe it is a strange subject. But I think is important to know how you can handle a deck best. People with longer fingers maybe need some different finger positions as people with regular or short fingers.
Anyway, I'm still hoping for Steve Forte's gambling protection series on dvd.
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:17 am |
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user125
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 159
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yes.. damn these short and stubby fingers of mine.. they won't let me do anything!!!
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| Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:50 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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| Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:18 pm |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Steve Forte |
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@Drey
No, I do not have Steve Forte's book "casino game protection".
http://www.mymagic.com/gaming.htm
Here the book is for sale (autographed )
The book is more expensive than others.
Do you own the book Drey? I've heard many good things of it. And hopefully I'll buy it soon. I still need a bit more information. $200,- is a lot of money for a single book. You can get roberto giobbi's card college series for this amount of money. But then again, I guess it's worth the price
Is the explanation a bit like giobbi's card college ?
Personally I think his series are very nice illustrated and explained.
Maybe you have a little more information for me about this nice book.
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:36 am |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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| bottom deal |
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Ok, last night I said what the hell and ordered the DVD.
A few of you have commented that the bottom deal is bad.
I just watched it on his website from the link that Drey posted.
I thought it looked fine. I am not really experienced with seconds or bottoms so I don't exactly know what to look for.
So can someone tell what is wrong with it? Does he use a bad method or is he just not doing it good....if this is one of the moves I try to learn from the DVD I don't won't to learn a bad technique.
If you did'nt know he was dealing seconds before you saw it are you trying to tell me that you would have noticed?...if so, why?
Thanks!
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There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:02 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Jeff dvd |
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@Chipmaster.
Good choice
Personally , I think it's a nice dvd.
The bottom deal in the clip ain't that good indeed. If you look at his hands, he streches his fingers (middle & ring) while he deals from the base. He also pushes the card with his left thumb when dealing straight.
When he deals a bottom, the cards remain on top, no push off or whatsoever.
(I'm talking about his dvd clip. Not his "tribute to Erdnase" In that clip, he uses a different grip)
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"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:59 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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Tom Ace
Do you own the book Drey?
No, I do not, I know someone who I talk to fairly regularly about gambling moves who bought at copy and at the time I was considering ordering 5 copies as David Malek was offering his assurance they would be signed and I figured it might be a good investment, but I decided to hold off.
Reading over the interview with Steve Forte I don't know that it would be ideal for the type of content I am interested in since it is tailored for cheating at a casino rather than cheating at an informal card game and as he pointed out, the two are entirely different animals. He also mentioned that this was not intended to be a sleight heavy book, it is not meant to be the written copy of his GPS video series, but focuses instead on a lot of other aspects. I'm sure I'd enjoy it and find many aspects interesting, but for now I decided it isn't really the ideal book for me, especially considering the price.
He actually commented on the price as well, saying if he had known it was going to be as popular as it is, he would have made it cheaper. But it is noteworthy than an extended eddition may be coming out later as well so it might be worthwhile to hold out for that.
And yes, it is a lot of money, but then again, it is also a lot of good content, so if it applied to you it would be well worth it.
Maybe you have a little more information for me about this nice book.
I'll ask this friend who got it and let you know.
Chipmaster
I just watched it on his website from the link that Drey posted.
There was some talk of this at "themagiccafe", the quality of the deals on his website are better than those on the preview clip for the DVD, still not great, but better. The ones on the DVD clip have very noticeable finger flash, we could break it down and go into other things, but that aspect is so obvious you don't really need to move beyond that point. On the website it is considerably better, but it is noteworthy that the a common tip off shows up (though not as obvious as the finger flare) and that is there is no clear take, rather the card comes off the table while apparently never clearing the deck, which is of course an impossibility for a true top. He does a fairly decent job of covering it and most people wouldn't notice, but it is one example of something to watch for.
There are many other things, but many of them are difficult to break down and examine on low quality video, heck it tends to be easier to see tip offs in general in real life than on video, of course then you also have sound to contend with.
Does he use a bad method or is he just not doing it good....
Mostly he is just not doing it well, though a lot of people don't like the handling he is using that is personal choice, I for example don't really like the handling he is using for the bottom deal, which you will note is different than his handling for the second deal.
if this is one of the moves I try to learn from the DVD I don't won't to learn a bad technique.
I don't think you will be, though it probably isn't the ideal technique (the fact that the deals use different grips is a starting example of this). There is something else to consider that someone mentioned about, I believe it was Herb Zarrow, that in terms of skill you wouldn't rank him very high, but in terms of his teaching ability he was one of the best and so his material is a great source from which to learn. It can be a similar issue here, Jeff's bottom deal may not be perfect, heck virtually any of his techniques are lacking compared with the likes of say Richard Turner or Darwin Ortiz, but that's ok, they are still pretty good for the most part and he can still teach the techniques well.
Though the flip side was raised by Ian Kendall when he was talking with Jeff. He pointed out that Jeff teaches 40 moves in 93 minutes. That is a little over 2 minutes per move, while Ian teaches two moves in 48 minutes, which is roughly 24 minutes per move, or ten times as much detail given to those moves. Obviously Ian is going to cover subtleties and details that Jeff never addresses.
If you did'nt know he was dealing seconds before you saw it are you trying to tell me that you would have noticed?...if so, why?
Based on the second deal on the website, no probably not. Based on the bottom deal on the preview clip, definately, it jumped out at me without looking for anything on the first time I watched it. In regards to the second deal keep something in mind though. Most flaws in a deal (the finer and subtler points) don't show up just when you are performing the false deal, but rather when you are performing the regular deal along with it. It would have been much more difficult for example had he been dealing top, top, top, second, second, top, second, than just dealing all seconds because there is nothing to compare the second deals to.
It's also not a very good means of evaluation in a short little video clip on the internet, especially one without sound, since for example sound on the second deal is very difficult to avoid.
I won't get into his performance on "A Tribute to Erdnase".
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:07 am |
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Tom Ace
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands |
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| Jeff's email |
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Jeff answerd my e-mail I sent to him yesterday. I asked him a few questions about his dvd.
I will post his answers here, maybe it usefull for some of you. Note that I won't post my email I sent to him, otherwise this post will be too large
Hello Tom,
Thank you for your kind e-mail. I'll be glad to answer your
questions.
- Which grip is best for bottoms, seconds and greeks?
I'd like to first point out that a cheat will never have to deal
bottoms, seconds and greeks in the same hand so the grip you use on
each deal doesn't have to be exactly the same. To a layman, you're
just holding the cards. They do not know the difference between
Straddle and Key grip.
If however, you must use one grip for seconds, bottoms, and greeks I
would unhesitatingly decide in favor of Erdnase grip (pun in wording
intended). You can see a video clip of me demonstrating Erdnase'
bottoms at the following address:
http://www.ramsites.net/~wessmillerjs
- Have you tried the push through shuffle with your ringfingers?
Yes I have, and found that because I have slender f
fingers, the packets can be seen passing through each other. I am
aware of Vernon's opinions on the revelations series and own his book
as well, but I'd like to remind you that he is a magician; not a card
cheat. Many of his moves/beliefs are formed from that standpoint.
- How old you are, and when did you start practicing sleight of hand?
You can read about this in the Style Weekly article written last
year. There is a link form my website
http://www.ramsites.net/~wessmillerjs
which will lead you directly to the article.
-F.I.S.M
It is doubtful that I will be able to make it to Stockholm. I work
and am a student full time year round.
Be well,
JW
_________________
"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today"
-James Dean- |
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:15 pm |
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Chipmaster
Card Tricks II, Chip Tricks III Champ
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 790
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Thanks again guys...especially Tom Ace and Drey. You have been most helpful.
Tom, you mention greek deals in the previous post. I have heard of these countless times but still have no idea what it is....care to clue me in?
Starting to get excited about seeing this DVD...hopefully it will be here by the weekend!
_________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:09 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
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I'll start with Chipmaster's question about the Greek deal. The Greek deal is, by another name, the "minus one bottom deal". You could liken it to a second deal on the bottom of the deck. Basically the concept is that in circles where people were aware of bottom dealing they would place a joker on the bottom of the deck to cancel out the bottom deal and make it impossible, that is to say, you could check and see if the joker was there afterwards. Another option is of course to place the joker face up, in which case it would be visible when dealt to the table and the cheat would be exposed. In order to circumvent this problem it became necessary to develop a method of dealing where you would deal off not the bottom card, but the card second from the bottom. This progressed further later with minus, two, three and four bottom deals (Marlo touches on this describing one method of performing such a deal one handed in either the Legend or Cardician DVD). It is quite a difficult sleight, much more so than a second deal or bottom deal in my opinion...depending on what grip you use etc.
Hope that answers your question.
Now I would like to comment briefly on a couple of things Jeff had to say in the email:
I'd like to first point out that a cheat will never have to deal
bottoms, seconds and greeks in the same hand so the grip you use on
each deal doesn't have to be exactly the same. To a layman, you're
just holding the cards. They do not know the difference between
Straddle and Key grip.
There is something to be said for this, though I would begin by pointing out that most grips facilitating an effective greek deal also facilitate an effective bottom deal as a bottom deal tends merely to be a simpler Greek deal. Though he didn't touch on the point, the same can be said for the center deal (note, the center deal is really more of a status deal than anything else) which won't be used at the same time as the bottom deal or second deal. That having been said, a cheat may use a second deal, greek deal or bottom deal all in the same game (I actually question why someone would use a bottom or greek deal at all actually when you consider how surprisingly simple it an be to simply go the extra step and stack the cards, but anyway...), and in that light it could serve as a tip off.
Personally I tend not to like his comment "To a layman, you're
just holding the cards" because you are relying on the ignorance of your audience, an ignorance that is not assured and I'm sure we are all aware where assumption can get us, thus it is best not to assume. You can get away with some incredibly poor skills around laypeople, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't improve and refine your skills to the point where they would pass professional criticism. He is right, cheats have for many years used different grips for different deals and gotten away with it. But in my opinion one should aim for the ideal and that ideal involves using the same grip for all deals and eliminating all tip offs with deal of those deals.
If however, you must use one grip for seconds, bottoms, and greeks I
would unhesitatingly decide in favor of Erdnase grip (pun in wording
intended).
I would disagree, but that is personal preference.
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| Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:59 pm |
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