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machinator
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 86
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 Riffle Culling (cold culling)- Best Technique? |
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For a while, since I first learnt to riffle stack, an effort I've since largely abandoned in favor of another, slightly bizarre technique of strip cut stacking and padding out even rounds with the perfect faro I've wanted to "cold" or "dead" cull desired cards (i.e. from a shuffled, unprepared deck). I appreciate it's both a difficult feat that requires years of diligent practice and determination, that doesn't deter me, however, it does also require some semblance of a source to learn it from. For a while I've been practicing blocking off and top and bottom transfer techniques to cull cards, these are however largely a result of my experimentation and playing about with cards other than any real sources - aside from the limited information within Marlo's Riffle Shuffle Systems manuscript (about culling edge worked cards), Secrets Draun From the Underground (culling and stacking crimped cards) and applying these principles to the veiled hints here and there about the Steven's cull (blocking off with a large clump from the packet you're not sighting for desired cards) I've had very little to go on.
So, as some of you, namely Drey, seem to have a never ending source of tremendously useful information on this I thought I'd ask..
So the question is basically - Karl Fulves, absolutely impossible to track down, I've gone so far as mailing him and heard no reply, but essentially, which manuscripts are useful - anyone know? They're very scarce, but I shall continue to hunt them down.
Sadowitz's work Thanks To Zarrow, I'm held to believe (largely due the description - "you don't even need to look at your hands") isn't relevant to cold culling, true?
Marlo, after spending well, too much money on Riffle Shuffle Systems, which is probably historically interesting but of little use, will the other manuscripts in the riffle shuffle trilogy be of much use or worth it?
Vernon's Revelations - I've read the Steven's cull is taught in very limited detail here, worth the 250+ price tag it carries?
Any other sources worth hunting down...
Oh, one other thing, Drey if you're reading this (hate to nag), but have you any idea when the e-book's going on sale.. I understand it's going to contain some information on this topic.. magic.org the right magic depot?
Take care,
Machinator.
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| Wed May 31, 2006 1:57 pm |
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expertmagician
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 467
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Riffle culling and stacking specific cards can be tricky if you want to use a regular deck. Common methods include culling cards from the discards or peaking cards during the shuffling proceedure.
Culling from the discards can be deceptive if done well and so can peaking. But, I find that peaking may involve too much staring at the cards during shuffling proceedures.
This means that I prefer using a gimmicked deck. Typically, my first choice is NOT to cull specific cards. But, to just cull and stack one random card and then cull the card's mates. This can be done deceptively by using a marked deck because you don't have to look at the faces of the cards. Same is true for culling from the discard....if you use marked cards, you don't have to look at the faces of the cards.
You next best bet is to use strippers, breather cards, etc. Cards gimmicked in this manner also makes them easy to find, cull and stack. Of course, you will always cull the same cards....where as if you use a marked deck, you can cull and stack different cards each time.
I hope these ideas helped !
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| Wed May 31, 2006 4:29 pm |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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So the question is basically - Karl Fulves, absolutely impossible to track down, I've gone so far as mailing him and heard no reply, but essentially, which manuscripts are useful - anyone know? They're very scarce, but I shall continue to hunt them down.
I haven't read any of these so I can't say for sure, I won an ebay auction for what is supposed to be his most interesting manuscript and unfortunately I never got a response from the seller. However, the manuscripts in question are: "Riffle Shuffle Methods" (a manuscript I can scarely find evidence ever existed except for talking to a few people, Darwin Ortiz being one of them, who have a copy, you could try emailing him and trying to beg, borrow or steal it from him (I'm pretty sure he has pretty much all of the relevent material actually), if you do get a copy let me know as its supposed to contain the Scarne shuffle control which interests me), "Riffle Shuffle Controls Part 2: Blocking Off" (this is the one I won but couldn't get, it apparently examines all Fulves latest work on the subject including how to speed up the shuffling process, but his technique is supposedly very difficult, though it's also supposed to be the most interesting), "Riffle Shuffle Controls" (I'm a bit confused about some of his manuscripts, but this is apparently relevent, I'm not sure how much so), "Riffle Shuffle Technique Part 2" (this was basically the original explanation of the Stevens cull and featured it as the main entry, though I believe it also featured what's become known as the Fulves shuffle control as well). "Riffle Shuffle Technique Part 1" probably isn't that interesting to you, it was all about the Zarrow shuffle. There's also a part 3, but I'm not sure what the deal was with its contents. There are also the Preliminary Notes for volumes 1 and 2, possibly 3, I can't recall exactly, but I could never figure out what the deal was with all the contents accordingly.
So basically, what you're looking for is "Riffle Shuffle Techniques Part 2", "Riffle Shuffle Methods" & "Riffle Shuffle Controls Part 2: Blocking Off".
Sadowitz's work Thanks To Zarrow, I'm held to believe (largely due the description - "you don't even need to look at your hands") isn't relevant to cold culling, true?
I had an opportunity to purchase this manuscript and passed it up because it was only 25 pages or something and I didn't think it would be worth the cost, especially since, traditionally, I'm disappointed reading over works on the subject as I find they're pretty basic and my own is superior so I can't comment, but it is apparently a source on the subject. Honestly, having worked extensively with Zarrow principles I've found they are very applicable to culling concepts, but I'm not sure which of those Jerry Sadowitz wrote about or how he applied them, my guess is it's mostly an examination of block transfer associated with the Zarrow shuffle and stacking.
Marlo, after spending well, too much money on Riffle Shuffle Systems, which is probably historically interesting but of little use, will the other manuscripts in the riffle shuffle trilogy be of much use or worth it?
I haven't read "Riffle Shuffle Finale", but I have read the first two. The first is essentially useless for culling, honestly, it isn't great for stacking, though it does have some ideas to play with. "The Patented Shuffle" honestly isn't much better offering only a cursory examination. They are good if you want to work on refining your strip-out shuffle, but aside from that and perhaps some block transfer ideas, which I personally am not a huge fan of, I think it's probably a waste for you. I've been told "Riffle Shuffle Finale", which is a much shorter manuscript has some interesting ideas. However, I've read Marlo's final material on the subject in the Marlo magazines, and if you assume that his material would have improved over the almost three decades that followed I'd doubt very highly that the "Riffle Shuffle Finale" is worth your time.
However, this brings us to the Marlo Magazines. Some of the ideas I expressed in my ebook are found in Marlo's Magazine volume 5 at least in principle, though not in precise execution. Marlo's Magazine volume 6 contains some good but primitive information. By this I mean, he's still only talking about culling one card per shuffle and the system is slightly obvious. However, in my experience the Marlo method for culling is easier than the original Steven's cull, though as I said it's slightly more obvious. He also examines very simple stacking principles that frankly focus on ease rather than accuracy, which actually works quite well. One advantage over Marlo's cull system as opposed to the systems I tend to use, is the success on the first shuffle, which was a slightly different approach from what I was used to. What I didn't like about it, aside from the overtness in the method, was that there were a lot of cuts involved, while the methods I use tend to involve virtually no non-standard cuts. Still, the Marlo Magazines, volumes 5 and 6 are decent sources, some of the better ones I've seen.
Vernon's Revelations - I've read the Steven's cull is taught in very limited detail here, worth the 250+ price tag it carries?
If you're getting it for the steven's cull, no. Instead, buy yourself a copy of "Down Under Deals", which teaches the Steven's cull, albeit briefly and with the intention of employing it in a magic effect, but at least teaches it accurately, which the Vernon book doesn't. The manuscript is quite short and not of very high quality, but it's also accessible and fairly cheap.
Oh, one other thing, Drey if you're reading this (hate to nag), but have you any idea when the e-book's going on sale.. I understand it's going to contain some information on this topic.. magic.org the right magic depot?
Yes, it was supposed to go on sale before now, but it's been held up due to a change in warehouse and a lot of preoccupation at the Magic Depot, but you'll definitely see it out this month.
To give you some idea of how it compares, in terms of culling, three overhand methods are taught along with various ideas for locating the cards in a random deck. In terms of riffle culling, the basic methods of locating cards are each discussed, my early version of blocking off is discussed, so are a few ideas on how to speed the shuffles up, methods of culling multiple cards per shuffle, reducing the number of shuffles and culling and stacking combinations. I can't say it's a definitive source, it covers almost everything I've seen in print prior to this point, but honestly, there is material that could be added so I'd recommend still getting a hold of some of the later Fulves material if you can, at least for interest if nothing else. Having said so, if I get a chance and the demand is sufficient, I'll probably write a follow-up document relating the remainder of the material, a lot of which is simply dedicated to speeding up the shuffling process and the remainder of which relates further to culling multiple cards per shuffle. Unfortunately, that will be a fairly vast undertaking as I have about as much additional material as I had original material, perhaps more, so we'll see how it all goes.
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| Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:05 pm |
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machinator
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 86
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Thanks for the relies.. a wealth of tremendously useful information as ever.. much appreciated..
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This means that I prefer using a gimmicked deck. Typically, my first choice is NOT to cull specific cards. But, to just cull and stack one random card and then cull the card's mates. This can be done deceptively by using a marked deck because you don't have to look at the faces of the cards. Same is true for culling from the discard....if you use marked cards, you don't have to look at the faces of the cards.
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Hmm.. well, were I heaven forbid to go down the road of using marked or gimmicked cards I would preferably use it in conjunction with a second deal and crude methods to determine what to deal (shuffle, shuffle, peek as much of the top stock I can in the last two false shuffles, decided what to go for). I personally prefer physical markings - either using the punch deal or black line work than going down the road of visual markings (although, that again, does restrict you to a certain set of cards).
As for the discard cull, within reason it can be tremendously effective and probably the simplest and one of the more reliable methods to cull cards in a game, but I can't confess to be genuine bona fide cheat, although I seldom play a game when I don't cheat it's never a money game. Were I to however I would probably go down the discard cull and three of a kind base deal route - it's tried, tested and tremendously efficient. My interest in cheating at cards is more to amuse myself (it sure as hell ain't commercial) and for me riffle culling has always struck me as the absolute pinnacle of card artistry... So whilst it's pretty trivial to fake it, what's the point when you can, eventually, do it for real..
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So basically, what you're looking for is "Riffle Shuffle Techniques Part 2", "Riffle Shuffle Methods" & "Riffle Shuffle Controls Part 2: Blocking Off".
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I shall continue my search, you never know it might turn up, Riffle Shuffle Techniques Part Two will probably the be the easier of the three to find as it was in Epilogue, although that's almost as hard to locate (sadly I understand they took the riffle shuffle work out when it made it's way to book form).
Honestly, having worked extensively with Zarrow principles I've found they are very applicable to culling concepts, but I'm not sure which of those Jerry Sadowitz wrote about or how he applied them, my guess is it's mostly an examination of block transfer associated with the Zarrow shuffle and stacking.
I'm still in the dark old days of the strip out shuffle, when it comes to block transfers, I might pick it up one day.. when I've a little more in the way of disposable income. Sadowitz's material is always interesting to say the least, even if just for the constant stream of Kaufman's a ****, ****** and etc...
Marlo's Magazine volume 6 contains some good but primitive information. By this I mean, he's still only talking about culling one card per shuffle and the system is slightly obvious. However, in my experience the Marlo method for culling is easier than the original Steven's cull, though as I said it's slightly more obvious.
I shall look out for them, although they're something of an investment, I hear they've a cursory examination of in-the hands riffle shuffle work which I've always had a passing interest in (Roman shuffle?).
Yeah, I guess the riffle shuffle trilogy was really the first published treatise on complex riffle shuffle work.. I maybe wrong (?), it felt, well, historically interesting but little else when I was reading the first one.. and given the price, I shall probably not track down the others.. unless there is a reprint or a sudden change in my fortunes.
As for the Marlo Magazines, I may, when I'm a little more in the way of funds, purchase MUM 6.. although I heard tell of a possibility of a reprint.. I think in the mean time I shall await your e-book and stick to a single technique and attempt to master it completely as opposed to having a cursory understanding of many, many techniques (one of the problems with Marlo I find is you end up sat there having to decided which of the 30 techniques he's given you to achieve the same thing is the best, easiest, cleanest etc..)
If you're getting it for the steven's cull, no. Instead, buy yourself a copy of "Down Under Deals", which teaches the Steven's cull, albeit briefly and with the intention of employing it in a magic effect, but at least teaches it accurately, which the Vernon book doesn't. The manuscript is quite short and not of very high quality, but it's also accessible and fairly cheap.
Certainly accessible and cheap, located a copy within a minute and bought it a snip at $15. Thanks, I shall wait for the re-print of Revelations to come around to get my hands upon it (which I'm told on good authority is in the pipe line, Chirst knows it's wanted).
Yes, it was supposed to go on sale before now, but it's been held up due to a change in warehouse and a lot of preoccupation at the Magic Depot, but you'll definitely see it out this month.
Ah, I look forward to it.
To give you some idea of how it compares, in terms of culling, three overhand methods are taught along with various ideas for locating the cards in a random deck.
I'm certainly intrigued, it's always been a stumbling block for me "cold" culling with the overhand shuffle - I find the Greek shuffle and over-under approach are well -crude but quite effective within the context of a game, upon close scrutiny however it becomes blatantly obvious what you're doing.
In terms of riffle culling, the basic methods of locating cards are each discussed, my early version of blocking off is discussed, so are a few ideas on how to speed the shuffles up, methods of culling multiple cards per shuffle, reducing the number of shuffles and culling and stacking combinations. I can't say it's a definitive source, it covers almost everything I've seen in print prior to this point, but honestly, there is material that could be added so I'd recommend still getting a hold of some of the later Fulves material if you can, at least for interest if nothing else.
I shall continue to search for the Fulves material, from what I can gather the later stuff the the most up to date and in depth material on the riffle shuffle to date. Look forward to the e-book, and thanks again for all the information, it's much appreciated.
Take care,
Machinator.
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| Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:51 am |
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jesse
4 Of A Kind
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 89
Location: Planet MELMAC |
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Hi!
Everybody interested in riffle work.
Buy DreyŽs book! 
PS: Drey, long time since we talked 
WeŽll have to do that soon!
Take care!
_________________
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| Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:45 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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Jesse
Thanks for the support.
PS: Drey, long time since we talked
WeŽll have to do that soon!
Yes, we will, what have you been working on?
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| Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:31 am |
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Drey
Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 699
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Some new information for those of you interested in the material.
First, the Jerry Sadowitz method as described in "Thanks to Zarrow" is alledgedly based heavily on the concept of magic rather than culling in a gambling like setting. It's derived from an old Derek Dingle book, which I believe might be found in the complete works of Derek Dingle, but I could be wrong. The material is at least in part presented in "Unreal Work" by Jason England.
Sadowitz also published something called the Major D'Alby Brag Stack in The Crimp (I don't know what issue). The advantage was you only did you peeking during the first shuffle but were able to cull the full three of a kind in three shuffles. The method was somewhat non-standard but apparently one of the best.
Paul R. Wilson published two variations of this method in MAGIC magazine, but didn't include any photographs.
Dai Vernon's "More Inner Secrets of Card Magic" has a description of teh Steven's control at the end of chapter 3. (A note here, apparently there is a difference between the Steven's cull and the Steven's control. Also, note that the Steven's control/cull doesn't refer to the process of blocking off, blocking off is just that, blocking off, rather, it refers to the method of pushing the packets together and is in my opinion definitely one of the best/most natural. It isn't described well in Andrew Wimhurst's book, but it is described and tends to work out quite well if you can get it figured out. Essentially it should resemble just squaring the packets as normal with no additional fiddling.)
As for the Fulves manuscripts, the most recent one "Riffle Shuffle Controls Part 2: Blocking Off" includes a description of the Scarne method as well as the Fulves method and is generally considered one of the best sources by far as it covers issues such as speed, direct control to the bottom of the deck, poor distribution, tracking down other cards etc. Fulves apparently considered Scarne's method that best and most deceptive he'd seen. It differed in large part in how the packets were pushed together.
There are supposed to be at least three works in progress on the subject of riffle work on top of my own material, so we'll see what comes out of it and how many of people's individual secrets get revealed. Most of what I've seen hasn't impressed me as it rarely addresses the primary concerns of culling (attention, speed and reduced numbers of shuffles).
In my opinion for a random order deck, the Marlo method is the easiest, but also the least elegant (I'm not sure what his Steven's control alternative in the Marlo Magazine Volume 5 is). Apparently there were some concerns where Vernon and others weren't willing to share their material with Marlo so he developed his ideas independently. Obviously the Sadowitz Zarrow method is great if you know where the cards are, but of course knowing where the cards are is the tough part. Of the methods I'm familiar with, including my own, at least for basic riffles (one card per shuffle), the Steven's control is the best for the actual squaring action of the deck. The Fulves method apparently requires quicker reactions than the regular Steven's method, but from what I understand this is somewhat unnecessarily so. Scarne's skill must have been extreme because Fulves apparently recommends 1 second riffles so I'm assuming Scarne could achieve this. Personally I think that's insane, you can definitely get away with two second riffles, if you get it down to 1.5 second riffles that's fantastic. It's noteworthy that there are good reasons to get it down to 1 second riffles though, so if you're able, that's always nice.
There are also a lot of methods you can use to make the process progressively easier and streamline the culling of large numbers of cards, some of which are described in my ebook, many of which are not. Steve Forte apparently suggests a method I'm not familiar with but sounds a lot like one of the Zarrow techniques I use to expedite the process, I'm not sure exactly what Forte's reasoning is, I personally use the method due to pacing.
I'm not familiar with any methods aside from my own for culling multiple cards per shuffle using a riffle shuffle, of which I have four. It's noteworthy that over extended periods riffle technique becomes progressively easier as you are able to assertain certain advantages progressively as actual gameplay, greater numbers of cards, players and shuffles become involved.
Hopefully that sums things up fairly well for those interested, there are I suppose a couple more points I could add, but mostly that gives you a good idea of the topic and sources, feel free to ask questions.
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| Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:23 pm |
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