Poker Card Tricks - Bottom Dealing Signs

Bottom Deal Grip Analysis

Posted by Drey on October 16, 2005 at 16:54

I was thinking about this subject a bit lately, so I figured I would break down some ideas here:

Mechanic's Grip
Honestly, I use this grip very little, but I find it is quite effective for push-off seconds. For bottoms, I find the stability is low relatively speaking and performing greeks are awkward. For strike seconds, the level of control suffers compared with some other grips. I have never seen a method of effectively dealing centers from the mechanic's grip. On the bright side, the grip is quite natural.

Master's Grip
This is in my view a grand and simplistic improvement to the mechanic's grip, as it offers better control for strike seconds, better stability for bottoms and simply superior control for the likes of centers and greeks. It is still quite natural, and yet more refined, generally a superior grip to the mechanic's grip. Unfortunately, fingers tend to get in the way for centers, bottoms and greeks.

Erdnase Grip
Quite controversial, the Erdnase grip certainly isn't the easiest of grips to master as it is inherently less stable than a mechanic's grip or master's grip. On the other hand, I can't help but feeling that generally, is it quite a deceptive grip for dealing bottoms, and one of the easier grips to use for performing greeks. I have some concerns when it comes to seconds, I find they are more difficult and certainly no more deceptive than from the master's grip and thus for seconds, it is generally inferior. Also, when it comes to bottoms, while it works, I find there are, more so than with most grips, certain concerns in regards to angles, particularly when you make use of a pivot push-off. It is possible to deal centers from the Erdnase grip and generally with a greater level of deceit than a master's grip, but then again, the method to which I refer is angle sensitive and thus far from ideal. Unfortunately, the fact that it is awkward makes it unnatural.

Straddle Grip
Favored by many people because it is arguably the easiest method of dealing bottoms, it is decidedly unnatural in spite of what some people argue about large hands. It is however true that dealing bottoms from a straddle grip is quite easy, though the quality of these deals is questionable. Sound is frequently cited as a concern, but as with most things this can be overcome with proper control and practice. However, for dealing strike seconds I consider the straddle grip abysmal. Then again, push-off seconds, while somewhat awkward are possible with a relatively high level of deceptiveness. It is possible to perform a center deal from the straddle grip, in fact it is in my experience one of the easiest methods, but certainly not one of the best. Greeks seem all but impossible unless you wish to resort to using the center deal method on the cards just off the bottom of the deck. The straddle grip seeks to eliminate some of the difficulties where fingers in the way are a concern, but there is a compromise of control and elegance. It's an easy grip for some deals, but generally not the most deceptive grip for any of them.

Shifted Grip
Characterized by a slightly forward take rather than a take purely to the right, the shifted grip ressembles a blend between the mechanic's grip and Erdnase grip visually, but differs substantially in terms of the mechanics. It is very solid making it relatively easy and secure. Push-off deals are nearly impossible, but strike seconds are relatively effective and simple when performed correctly, though they unfortunately lack the economy of motion potentially found in some master's grip derivatives. Bottoms deals are simple on the one hand, but suffer from the recurring problems of fingers getting in the way, which is especially significant given the somewhat forward take. As with most problems and deals one can address and eliminate this concern, but at the cost of significant practice and adjustment. Fortunately, greeks are possible with only a slight adjustment meaning, while you can deal tops, greeks, bottoms and centers all together, a very slight and almost imperceptible shift in the grip means you can't deal greeks or centers in precisely the same manner as you would deal seconds, the difference being only a slight change in the position of the thumb. This brings us to centers, where I find the shifted grip is quite appealing as it offers one of the best essentially angle free center deals around. Push-off deals in general are not possible and thus you have this inherent problem, certain of the difficulties created by the handling also require significant practice to overcome, but are worth the effort.

Standard Grip (Key grip? I'm not entirely sure what all names are applied to this grip, but it is characterized by all four fingers on the right side of the deck so it is griped between the fingers and the palm of the hand, it is described in the original Phantom of the Card Table manuscript as the method for dealing strike seconds, you will find that it is probably the most common and basic grip for laypeople)
I honestly haven't played around much with what I term the standard grip. It works well for strike seconds, but no better than the master's grip does and bottoms are both difficult and unsightly, I've never tried to perform centers or greeks from the grip.

Count's Grip (Similar to SF Grip found in Seconds, Centers & Bottoms)
Stable and flexible with some interesting benefits the grip is excellent in terms of deceptiveness, but weak when viewed from the left. It eliminates most of the typical concerns found in strike bottoms and greeks, making a very deceptive deal quite simple, but as a result complicating the second deal and some other aspects of virtually all deals. The center deal, while very deceptive when executed well, is extremely difficult and thus not particularly recommended. The grip is different, but not totally unnatural, though economy of motion is lower than with a superb master's grip deal or the like.


Now naturally, with any grip you can perform a deal well or poorly and there are vast variations within the grips. For example, the contrast between a master's grip bottom deal and a cigar bottom deal, both of which use the same grip, but are nevertheless different from one another. In spite of this however, there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to various grips simply due to stability, flexibility etc. You will notice I haven't mentioned double dealing, simply because it doesn't seem terribly common. If I have missed any grips, please let me know and I'll go back and attempt to cover them. For the record, I don't consider any of these grips universally ideal, but I find the review of various grips and methods an interesting one, especially since you find that certain things are possible that seem as yet unpublished, for example I had never seen a center deal from the straddle grip before.

Posted by Mysticyx on October 17, 2005 at 08:33

Is there a book which learns all these grips with photo's included? If so, what is its name?

Posted by Shadow on October 17, 2005 at 16:07

Great post, Drey. Thanks for your analysis.

Posted by Sreename on October 17, 2005 at 16:10

WoW,
Now thats what I call an informative post. Nice Drey!
*wonders how long he took for that post
As a question, you descibe alot of grips here, wich one do you like the most, for any random situation?

Sreen

Posted by Maverick on October 17, 2005 at 18:26

hmm im sure alot of thought went into to this so i just wanted to show appreciation

Posted by LeRoux on October 17, 2005 at 19:21

That's quite interesting Drey! I'm just starting out, and your post is quite usefull in learning the importance or each grips, and when to use them.

	Mysticyx wrote:
	Is there a book which learns all these grips with photo's included? If so, what is its name?

Posted by Drey on October 17, 2005 at 20:27

Is there a book which learns all these grips with photo's included? If so, what is its name?

My ebook provides this for all grips except for the standard grip and the master's grip, which, instead of describing the master's grip, I described a high master's grip due to a slightly different pivoting action on the base of the thumb, which has relevence in one-handed dealing. I also didn't describe all of the deals described, leaving out center dealing from a straddle grip as well as from the shifted grip. Furthermore, the grips are described with corresponding deals, not individually as grips, a point I would probably change if I did it again.

As a question, you descibe alot of grips here, which one do you like the most, for any random situation?

In general, if I'm doing just basic dealing (tops, seconds and bottoms), I generally prefer a master's grip though slightly modified from Marlo's description, where the take is performed between the middle finger and ring finger instead of forefinger and middle finger and with a slightly modified take.

Lately, I've been mostly using the shifted grip simply because I've been doing a lot of center dealing and I find that once you work out the kinks it's one of the most effectively versitile grips for expanding to greeks and centers.

For specific deals it would go as follows (all two handed dealing):
Strike Seconds - Master's Grip
Push-off Seconds - Mechanic's Grip
Strike Bottoms - It depends partially on the circumstances, in performance I usually use the Count's grip or the Shifted grip
Push-off Bottoms - Guy Hollingworth's variant master's grip
Greeks - I used to use the Count's grip the most here, but it depends a lot, there are a huge number of ways to deal Greeks, and lately, for consistency I've been using the shifted grip a lot as I don't like to deal seconds from the Count's grip since it leaves a danger of hangers
Centers - The shifted grip lately, but there's another grip I didn't describe due to its obscurity that I came up with almost exclusively for thirds, fourths, fifths and centers that takes an opposite approach to conventional dealing and works quite well

As I mentioned, there are many variations on the given grips, or more appropriately, the associated deals. For example, I've been experimenting lately with a second deal I simply call Slyndini seconds, because it is based on what I recall of John Scarne dealing seconds and I recall hearing that Slyndini taught him the method he used. I've also been playing around with what I refer to as Scarne bottoms, based on a grip he used that is somewhat like an open Erdnase grip and is fairly deceptive, but also quite uncontrolled.

This ain't a Book, and it's not in english (french, my native langage...) but hey, you can at least get to peek at a couple different grips. I guess it could help...

Interesting link, the last three fingers of the hand are grouped together low to a greater extent than I use with a mechanic's grip, and the photograph of the Erdnase grip varies somewhat from what I use. Generally, my grip is slightly higher and the middle finger runs more along the front of the deck than underneath, a point you will find helpful with some center deal variations.

Posted by kodiak2 on October 18, 2005 at 18:17

Great Post! That was very useful information.
I think that the standard grip is also called the full grip. I use the master's grip for my strike mottoms, so now I guess I try the shifted or counts grip

Posted by AceInTheHole on October 19, 2005 at 20:42

hey drey thx again but does anyone know what the biddle grip is?

Posted by kodiak2 on October 19, 2005 at 22:06

	AceInTheHole wrote:
	hey drey thx again but does anyone know what the biddle grip is?

Posted by mmhmm on January 22, 2006 at 09:23

Can someone tell me what the difference is with strike and push-off? I'm a newb just trying to learn the basics...but I'm sure most of you can tell.

Posted by Midget Drummer on January 22, 2006 at 10:52

Wow! That is one super detailed post, well done.

Posted by marpenothi on January 22, 2006 at 13:54

	mmhmm wrote:
	Can someone tell me what the difference is with strike and push-off? I'm a newb just trying to learn the basics...but I'm sure most of you can tell.

Posted by Drey on January 22, 2006 at 16:53

marpenothi

He was referring to dealing not double lifts. As for the difference, with a push off, you push the card you'll be false dealing out, while with a strike deal you take it directly from the deck. Somewhat difficult to explain without showing you or using pictures or something comparable.

Posted by Chipmaster on January 23, 2006 at 02:37

Hey Drey....I might like to check out your ebook.
Do you have a website?....if so you should have a link in your signature....

Posted by meijin on January 24, 2006 at 14:35

Drey:

I, too, would be quite interested in the eBook.

Thanks!

Michael

Posted by aesops fable on January 31, 2006 at 13:55

im familar with a few of these grips, but whats the straddle grip?

Posted by Aos on January 31, 2006 at 14:15

stradle grip is $50.

Posted by Tom Ace on January 31, 2006 at 16:13

Drey

A vary nice list of the different grips. A lot of questions are there about these grips, so this will be a great place to answer and discus them.

Unfortunately I have to go now, so I will be visiting this topic tomorrow again, and share my thoughts with you all.

Aesops fable
Check out Jeff Wessmillers dvd: weapons of the card shark.
There you see the grip he is using.
Also Vernon revelations describes the grip. I like this dvd better.

There are other sources as well, I'm sure they are going to be listed soon.


Tom.

Posted by MasTerbLurr on May 20, 2006 at 17:13

can you post pics of all those grips?

Posted by Drey on May 20, 2006 at 18:26

I should perhaps expand slightly on the original post to clarify a few points and add some new ideas, I actually came up with a new method of center dealing the other day that I really like and it fits well with some other methods.

First, for the distinction between the Key grip and the standard grip. The difference is a bevel in the deck. I've heard a lot of people say they like the key grip for dealing seconds, but I'd like to point out that the key grip makes absolutely no sense if you aren't use Walter Scott's second deal system as it's based entirely on taking advantage of the work he put in on the cards in advance. Normally, a standard grip, which is quite similar will serve you just as well and makes more sense. Neither of these offer much flexibility outside tops and seconds unless you want to modify the take in an unnatural manner.

When it comes to the shifted grip, there are some powerful variations that make it not only extremely deceptive, but incredibly flexible, probably the most flexible of all the grips, while still relatively simple to employ. To be fair however, there are major advantages of executing a push-off deal. This goes for both a top card push-off and a push-off in general, neither of which are effective from the shifted grip.

The master's grip is practically without peer when it comes to general flexibility and naturalness. It's one grip you'll never have a problem with in terms of appearance because it resembles the standard grip so closely. It's effective for push-off deals, especially if you employ some of the new concept push-offs to eliminate many of the familiar tip offs, though Greek deals are still somewhat frustrating. The Namtla center deal is perhaps the best in terms of it's naturalness and deceptive nature (though it's not the most flexible when compared with a few variations along with the more complex shifted center deals and takes a bit more practice). Finally, most of the master's grip techniques are applicable to dealing both one-handed and two handed, which is nice.

There's also the "Good deal" grip which I hadn't mentioned previously. This takes a radically different approach to dealing centers that looks from most angles very natural because there's no reaching involved, though the grip itself is a bit unusual. It also takes some work to get control of the bottom portion of the deck down effectively and the grip isn't terribly flexible for switching between false deals, it's main application is long term diminishing 5ths, 4ths, 3rds and seconds as well as center deals. Bottoms are terrible unless you adjust the take action slightly, which I feel destroys some of the beauty in the center deal. And shifting between seconds and tops is often problematic if you want to maintain the perfect consistency of the deal.

Finally, there's Guy Hollingworth's dealing grip which, with some modification is excellent. I can deal doubles, seconds, centers, greeks and bottoms from the grip (though the centers and greeks have a slight inconsistency with the others) and there's definite appeal to the center deal technique which is not only one of the easier methods, but one of the more deceptive. Unfortunately, the grip is somewhat different from a traditional grip (again, you can adapt it), and it takes some getting used to.

I'll leave it at that for now.